Necro pet (Liches) bugs

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Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:14 pm

1) When liches cast curse, they don't take into account, if the mob is already cursed.

2) When liches cast curse, they do it repeatedly, regardless if they have cast it already. (Haven't liches cast weaken for me.)

3) Liches attempt to demon bind high-level mobs repeatedly.

4) Liches demon bind mobs that didn't phase on me.

5) Liches don't immediately use their mana. This is pretty uncomfortable, considering they are weaker, than other pets, they don't use their abilities well this way and it's best to kill the mob, rather than attempt to hit him (liches have noticeably lower hitroll, than wights or wraiths.).

All of this makes them much worse, than the much easier available wraiths or even wights. I thought that pets should be better with levels (comparing wights to liches now).

You might say that liches blast and I need to use them for specific mobs - well - I tried - they don't blast or cast in the ways specified above.

I suggest the following to improve 4-5:
- allow necros to set the casting direction of a pet by selecting a pre-set guideline: order lich cast mage, order lich cast nomage
- allow necros to select specific spells for each mob: order lich cast destruction, order 2.lich cast curse/weaken/arms of the abyss/destruction
- allow necros create their own presets:
create preset mageone demon bind, destruction
create preset magetwo curse/weaken/demon bind/destruction
create preset solid curse/weaken/destruction

Presets can be named differently, such as chain of commands, instructions or enchantments.

Usage:
order lich use mageone
order 2.lich use magetwo
order 3.lich use solid

Thank you.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby element » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:24 pm

by the time u get through order 1. order 2. order 3.

you're probably dead :D
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Spink » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:36 pm

The way I understood it, the suggestion allows the necro to define the behavior of the pet before the fight.

Then when the fight arrives, order whatever kill target would result in the defined behavior.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby element » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:27 am

I think one of the features of pets is that they behave in a way you don't have total control over.

If u can have one pet blast, one pet debuff, one pet bash or whatever, they'd be way overpowered.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:39 am

Spink got it right, I meant the presets to be created and used before fight.

Way overpowered? Simply fixing the 1-4 bugs would make them actually useful, than lower level pets, including summoned pets (wraiths) - and apparently animated pets should be better, than summoned pets (they aren't, atm).

The preset option doesn't change them more, than fixing the bugs (i.e., not binding nomage mobs, etc). It doesn't even add new spells to pets: they'd cast debuffs anyway, but the preset saves them about 0-30ma per pet, depending on how the spell checks are done, that's all (with all the mentioned bugs fixed, I should add).

What the presets do is allow necros actually use the pets, rather than rely on some minimal random chance they'll do something.

For example, wights already proc well and only one of them procs the poison once, the rest don't proc it during the fight. I don't see why liches can't proc curse, bind, weaken (if liches do it, haven't seen it) and blast as effectively as wights do at the moment.

Example:
1. The 1-4 bugs are fixed:
- liches debuff the mob randomly (one lich casts curse, another bind, another weaken/arms)
- liches proceed with blasting the mob

2. With presets:
- 1-2 liches debuff the mob, if there are more, they start blasting
- liches proceed with blasting

Another variant:
- liches start blasting immediately

The only difference is the speed of blasting, which does make the mobs use their potential, but not really overpowered.

Also, I didn't mention bash: liches don't have this proc. I'm only talking about the efficient use of current pet procs, I'm not discussing about adding any new procs/spells to pets at the moment.
Last edited by Teron on Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Spink » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:53 am

It strikes me that these would not be overly easy to implement (although I guess I wouldn't know, so just call it an unqualified guess).

So (assuming I guessed well) that means for it to have a chance, an immortal has to love it enough to put in the time.

Perhaps easier (and requiring far less love) would be to just remove the debuff spells from the lich arsenal, since debuffs are better guided by real intelligence anyway.

That way you get a buff disguised as a nerf, changing a lich from a confused random-number-generator/spellcaster to a focused destruction machine.

Perhaps if this is too considered too powerful, one of the debuffs could be left in, to dilute the destruction a bit.

Anyway, I don't really know what I'm doing, so feel free to poke holes.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:36 am

You are right that fixing bugs is easier, than implementing the presets.

And I'll be fine if they just fix the bugs as well.

But the presets could be a useful addition to the necro pet arsenal, rather than removing the debuffs.

Removing debuffs from liches seems like a step back, rather than fixing the actual problems or adding something useful/interesting to the mud.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Thraxas » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:36 am

I understand your frustration and its frustration I have on occassion felt with necro pets, that said however the bottom line in my view is that necro pets provide necros at all levels (that I have achieved so far) with a balanced level of power.

I would see liches in the same way that I would see many many of the mage/cleric spells /bard songs that are rarely if ever used, nice background to the game but functionally pointless, other than testing I have never used liches, should they be of use? probably. Do I care much about it? Not at all.

It soon becomes apparent that by and large wraiths and wights are the best pets to use in most circumstances, there are exceptions especially when you start working out how best necro pets can mix with supplications, this makes banshee and vilewight viable. I would favour 3 wights over 2 vilewights most days.

Personally I dont want to worry about setting pets up or passing them additional orders, I would much rather summon&spell them then order them into the fight and let them get on with it. Any additional work I would need to do to manage them should be met by equal increase in power they provide.

While I would be very happy to see pets rationalised to see a gradual increase in available power through necro levels stepping up every time a new pet was available, this would not only make a lot of sense but would improve the richness of the game and therefore my enjoyment. I dont however see this as anything like a burning issue, I prefer to just shrug and accept that some pets are there just for decoration.

My biggest concern right now is to hear from other necros with a few more levels than me that bonesnarls are now pointless due to insufficient AC ... hearing that sort of took the excitement out of looking forward to 5x40 ... I guess the reign of the wights and wraiths will continue.

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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:48 am

Thraxas, when I was exping for 3x40, I eagerly anticipated the increase of power of my pets. Using 36lev pets at 2x40 necro (or even far beyond) is not that elegant, don't you think?

Now I learn that I don't need to anticipate anything at 5x40 necro as well: what is fun in that?

I rather side with this point of view:
While I would be very happy to see pets rationalised to see a gradual increase in available power through necro levels stepping up every time a new pet was available, this would not only make a lot of sense but would improve the richness of the game and therefore my enjoyment.

I've seen a number of things that could be improved with necro and this is the major one, in my opinion. So if imms aren't working on making the whole animate dead set improve gradually, such as
- slightly improving the vampires (they are too low hps and dam to be worth finding larger corpses and animating them at night, despite their useful proc that's supposed to prolong the runs - but it doesn't, because they die anyway)
- making other animated pets useful, as mentioned by you and including the whole animate/summon set
- reducing the amount of wight slots the imp takes to 1, since it does much less damage and heals only after fight
- reducing the random bonus, where uc gear effect is negligible (i.e., the random hp effect overcomes the UC gear effect)
then they might as well start with the liches and work from there.

Not that I don't appreciate the time and effort the imms put into the mud, but I think this can be one of the critical points of improvements they can focus on.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:12 am

For those, who doubt that liches don't blast, especially on ether mobs, have feel free to enjoy this log and see how many times liches cast in this fight and what they cast:

Mug reaches out with his spiritual hands, gripping the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
<900hp 415ma 204mv> 317762252, -10, -9.7+0
cast 'curse' weap
You stop singing.
You lost your concentration!
<900hp 406ma 205mv> 317762252, -10, -9.7+0
The ghostly Weaponsmaster brutally massacres Mug with his hit.
You feel a sudden rush of excitement!
You are brutally massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres Mug with his hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster hates your guts!
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
You report 839/900 hp. Change: -60. Need: 61. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<839hp 407ma 206mv> 317762952, -10, -9.7+700
rescue mug
rescue mug
Mug maintains his wraithtouch on the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
Banzai! To the rescue...
<843hp 408ma 207mv> 317762952, -10, -9.7+0
But nobody is fighting him?
<843hp 408ma 207mv> 317762952, -10, -9.7+0
order undead kill weap
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
<846hp 409ma 209mv> 317762952, -10, -9.7+0
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster misses you with his hit.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
You report 762/900 hp. Change: -77. Need: 138. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<762hp 409ma 209mv> 317765138, -10, -9.7+2186
Mug maintains his wraithtouch on the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
<766hp 410ma 210mv> 317765138, -10, -9.7+0
Mug utters the words, 'diesilla barh'
<766hp 410ma 210mv> 317765138, -10, -9.7+0
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
The ghostly Weaponsmaster misses you with his hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You report 685/900 hp. Change: -77. Need: 215. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<685hp 412ma 212mv> 317767010, -10, -9.7+1872
l weap
Mug utters the words, 'qahijf gsfal'
<685hp 412ma 212mv> 317767010, -10, -9.7+0
Mug maintains his wraithtouch on the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
<686hp 412ma 213mv> 317767010, -10, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
The song ends, and you feel less camaraderie with your party.
<689hp 414ma 214mv> 317767010, -10, -9.7+0
Mug utters the words, 'qahijf gsfal'
<689hp 414ma 214mv> 317767010, -10, -9.7+0
This battled scarred veteran appears to have lost the really
important battle, the one that killed him. Now he can but
remember his days of glory, when his scars were ones of victory
and not of defeat. He doesn't look very happy and being looked
at seems to have irritated him.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster has some small wounds and bruises.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.
<691hp 414ma 215mv> 317767010, -10, -9.7+0
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!
You report 882/900 hp. Change: +197. Need: 18. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<882hp 352ma 215mv> 317774650, -9, -9.7You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
You are brutally massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You report 606/900 hp. Change: -276. Need: 294. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<606hp 352ma 215mv> 317775698, -9, -9.7+8688
Mug maintains his wraithtouch on the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
Mug releases his grip on the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
<607hp 353ma 216mv> 317775698, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
You lost your concentration!
<610hp 323ma 217mv> 317775698, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
Mug utters the words, 'qahijf gsfal'
<611hp 323ma 218mv> 317775698, -9, -9.7+0
@@
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
You are brutally massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You report 340/900 hp. Change: -266. Need: 560. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<340hp 324ma 219mv> 317777550, -9, -9.7+1852
With a mighty effort, you shake off your exhaustion!
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!
You report 528/900 hp. Change: +188. Need: 372. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<528hp 262ma 179mv> 317785070, -9, -9.7+7520
cast 'restorat' Taron
You are thirsty.
<533hp 264ma 181mv> 317785070, -9, -9.7+0

<533hp 264ma 181mv> 317785070, -9, -9.7+0
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!
You report 728/900 hp. Change: +200. Need: 172. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<728hp 202ma 181mv> 317792870, -9, -9.7+7800
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
A lich utters the words, 'judifgz'
The ghostly Weaponsmaster briefly reveals a red aura!
You report 653/900 hp. Change: -75. Need: 247. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<653hp 202ma 181mv> 317794534, -9, -9.7+1664
TICK IN 10 SECONDS.
save
Animates are up for 4 ticks!
Mug looks at the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
<654hp 202ma 181mv> 317794534, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
Saving Taron.
Saving items.
<654hp 202ma 181mv> 317794534, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'destruction'
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!
You report 859/900 hp. Change: +206. Need: 41. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<859hp 140ma 181mv> 317802694, -9, -9.7+8160
Mug -- 'nope'
<860hp 140ma 182mv> 317802694, -9, -9.7+0
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
A lich is dead! R.I.P.
Your blood freezes as you hear a lich's death cry.
A lich stops following you.
Undeads have been up for 4 ticks!
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
You report 776/900 hp. Change: -83. Need: 124. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<776hp 140ma 182mv> 317802802, -9, -9.7+108
Ok.
A piece of the ghostly Weaponsmaster is blasted away.
<777hp 121ma 182mv> 317810040, -9, -9.7+7238
Mug looks at the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
<778hp 121ma 182mv> 317810040, -9, -9.7+0
l weap
This battled scarred veteran appears to have lost the really
important battle, the one that killed him. Now he can but
remember his days of glory, when his scars were ones of victory
and not of defeat. He doesn't look very happy and being looked
at seems to have irritated him.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster has quite a few wounds.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.
<778hp 121ma 183mv> 317810040, -9, -9.7+0
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
You are brutally massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You report 505/900 hp. Change: -271. Need: 395. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<505hp 121ma 183mv> 317811923, -9, -9.7+1883
gt hehe
You grouptell: 'hehe'
<505hp 121ma 183mv> 317811923, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!
You report 706/900 hp. Change: +201. Need: 194. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<706hp 59ma 183mv> 317819923, -9, -9.7+8000
Mug utters the words, 'diesilla barh'
<706hp 60ma 183mv> 317819923, -9, -9.7+0
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
You are brutally massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster misses you with his hit.
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
A lich utters the words, 'judifgz'
You report 554/900 hp. Change: -152. Need: 346. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<554hp 60ma 184mv> 317820805, -9, -9.7+882
cast 'restorat' Taron
Mug looks at the ghostly Weaponsmaster.
<555hp 60ma 184mv> 317820805, -9, -9.7+0
You can't summon enough energy to cast the spell.
<555hp 60ma 184mv> 317820805, -9, -9.7+0
l weap
This battled scarred veteran appears to have lost the really
important battle, the one that killed him. Now he can but
remember his days of glory, when his scars were ones of victory
and not of defeat. He doesn't look very happy and being looked
at seems to have irritated him.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster has quite a few wounds.

You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.
<555hp 60ma 184mv> 317820805, -9, -9.7+0
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
You are brutally massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You miss the ghostly Weaponsmaster with your pound.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You report 366/900 hp. Change: -188. Need: 534. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<366hp 60ma 184mv> 317821885, -9, -9.7+1080
cast 'restorat' Taron
You can't summon enough energy to cast the spell.
<367hp 61ma 185mv> 317821885, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
You can't summon enough energy to cast the spell.
<367hp 61ma 185mv> 317821885, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
You can't summon enough energy to cast the spell.
<368hp 61ma 185mv> 317821885, -9, -9.7+0
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
You are brutally massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster misses you with his hit.
You are viciously massacred by the ghostly Weaponsmaster's hit.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster extremely hard.
You report 181/900 hp. Change: -185. Need: 719. Spells: wall of flesh, fluidity.
<181hp 61ma 185mv> 317822095, -9, -9.7+210
cast 'restorat' Taron
You can't summon enough energy to cast the spell.
<182hp 61ma 186mv> 317822095, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
Mug panics, and attempts to flee.
As Mug steps through the protective wall of flesh, it disintegrates into a pile of goo.
<182hp 61ma 186mv> 317822095, -9, -9.7+0
You can't summon enough energy to cast the spell.
<182hp 61ma 186mv> 317822095, -9, -9.7+0
cast 'restorat' Taron
Ok.
The cleansing fires of healing fill your body!
You report 377/900 hp. Change: +196. Need: 523. Spells: fluidity, wall of flesh.
<377hp 0ma 186mv> 317829855, -9, -9.7+7760
fle
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
A lich's zap passes right through the ghostly Weaponsmaster!
The ghostly Weaponsmaster misses you with his hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
The ghostly Weaponsmaster viciously massacres a lich with his hit.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
You pound the ghostly Weaponsmaster very hard.
As you step through the protective wall of flesh, it disintegrates into a pile of goo.
Remains of Main Street
Exits: North East West

For those, who skipped the log, it's 2 curses in 11 rounds. Very helpful.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Thraxas » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:14 am

nice log and tallies with the testing I've done, liches are pointless, as I said they're decoration only rather than serving any functional purpose, do I care, Not at all, necros have other pets that provide adequate power.

It would be nice to see a similar job of work done on necros as has been done on druids to smooth their power out over levels and provide a gradual step up in the power of pets available as you progress

If this was done right, then some step ups would be to just stronger pets some step ups would increase utility. This is what I think was intended behind the pet structure.

low level: wraiths / wights - utilitarian fighters
step up and you get vampires - better fighters but only available at night <<< this works well but not that much better that its worth waiting for night
step up and you get liches - worse fighters but with vs ether proc <<< this just dosent work at all
step up and you get vilewights - better utilitarian fighters <<< they are, but as you only get 2 vilewights to 3 wights the balance stays with wights
step up and you get call followers <<< fantastic spell worth waiting for
step up and you get control horde <<< fantastic spell worth waiting for
step up and you get banshee - better utilitarian fighters with good proc attack <<< proc attack somewhat broken (and reported) imo no better than vilewights

(This is where I am)

So the next steps up would logically be to a bigger lich / vampire i.e. better vs ether pet or better fighter but with restrictions e.g. very powerful fighter but dies with the mob / only available in daylight, followed by a more powerful utilitarian fighter.

They dont happen, instead you get bonesnarls a bigger version on vilewights that were on S3 absolutely fantastic, on S4 I havent played with them yet but I hear they're useless as they have such bad ac and die quickly.

Anyway, I think pets could be sensibly improved without unbalancing the class, but this would take a job of work and I think we can all see that the imms are working fantastically hard atm in other areas. Necro as a class works now, so understandably this isnt likely to be a priority, I would see this as sensible improvement rather than the class being fundamentally broken, which it isnt.

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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Dragoth » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:38 am

Splork told me he'd look into balancing animated pets above wraiths ages ago and it's still not done, granted he doesnt have alot of time and not many people up till now have complained as wimpy tends to be very quiet when it comes to reporting things to immortals and others are just not high enough level.

At the moment it seems that pretty much all animate dead pets after wraiths and banshees are useless, not only do you need to farm corpses, but the powers of those undeads are not on par.

Vampires: Slightly stronger than wights, but again you can only have 2 of them at 1x40 while you can have 3 wights and you can only summon them at night, so vampires arent a viable upgrade to wights.
Fix: allow for 3 vampires 1x40, 3 vampires and 1 wraith at 2x40.

Liches:
Problem: As above, you can only have 2 before control horde and they do not provide good enough blasting power to be at least on par with the damage output of 3 wraiths.
Fix: removing the curse spell from their list and adding vampiric touch with destruction as the only 2 spells they can cast in equal proportions.

Vilewight:
Problem - not much stronger than a single wraith and yet you are only allowed to have 2 of them while you can have 3 or even 4 wraiths ( once you get control horde ). 2 of them are weaker than 3 wraiths, and once you get the 4rth wraith there is really no competition.
Fix: reduce the cost in pet points for vilewights to allow 2 viles and 1 wraith or lich before control horde and 3 viles and 1 wraith once you get control horde.

As i didnt really get as far as Bonesnarls and Phantoms i've heard from Wimpy that they do indeed suck and do not fare well against banshees and wraiths, im guessing Wimpy would be the person to talk to if immortals are interested in fixing the higher necro pets.

Overall im happy that we at least have pets like wraiths and banshees now to look forward to from 1x40 till avatar and control horde, before that it was only wights that were useful as you could only have 2 wraiths and they sucked. And it only took 2 months of nagging to change that.

It does seem like necro's have a plethora of pets to choose from, but in the end alot of the pets are just wasted because they are not competitive and this in turn makes necro less fun to level than it could have been.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:54 am

Thraxas, just to bring this point up again: vampires have a hp suck proc, which would theoretically allow them to last longer, thus prolonging the runs and/or increasing exp/hr. So they are supposed to be useful in a way, other than just being tougher fighters. However, it's not effective, because vampires have low hps and low ac (apparently), because they die too quickly.

Simply animating vampires at night isn't that huge of a problem, compared to that they die quickly and are less useful, than wights.

Dragoth, I think wights can be useful at times (compared to wraiths), when high hitroll/hps are required: they are my preference against thick high ac mobs that I usually kill. Though with high uc/bard songs the difference is very minimal, especially, if wraiths are lit.

I also have to note that liches have 1.5 more pet points, than wights, so if they are coded that way, they should be at least x1.5 times more useful, than wights.
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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby *Chobbs* » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:59 pm

Mornin' folks,

I'll take a look at this (next big project? who knows!); shouldn't be too bad making the liches/demiliches less... stupid.

I'm all for a better pet growth for necros, but I'm quite wary about touching this since it would probably involve adjusting wights quite a bit, probably in the weaker direction. Why don't we use wights as the standard, and work from there? My first impression is that if we did that, the high level animates/summons will become really disgustingly powerful, but I'll reserve that call until after I look at the actual numbers and decide if I want to get lambasted for touching this sensitive aspect of sloth.

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Re: Necro pet (Liches) bugs

Postby Teron » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:32 pm

IMHO, starting with wights as the standard is a good idea, because:
- they are slightly better, than wraiths, which makes sense, since they require corpses to be animated
- they are the type of pets that are actually useful
- wraiths work, too, but not as good as wights
- the overpower factor can be diminished, while keeping wights the same, by managing the difference between the next-level pets well (i.e., not making vilewights 3khp monsters). So great power of next level forms lies not in the wights themselves, but in the pet-specific multipliers you use to create next-level forms.

So there's no need to decrease wights at all in any circumstances, in my opinion.

Thanks for looking this up, Chobbs.
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