Something about Alignment, yet again..

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Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby Dragoth » Tue May 13, 2014 2:47 pm

Not going to go into much detail, as a lot has been said about this particular feature already.

But, could I propose a spell, lets call it "Focus Mind" which would allow a particular character with considerable amount of levels, to concentrate his mind enough, just for a good few minutes, to allow himself to kill monsters of the same alignment as himself, without actually succumbing to guilt or worse ?
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby DarkArtist » Tue May 13, 2014 8:35 pm

Skill: Moral Flexibility ?

j/k...pls no.

I pray that at some point in the future some kindly coder will rethink the mechanics of alignment and do the following:

A: Remove the feature whereby alignment plummets drastically upon the killing of a creature with very good alignment. Instead the process should just mirror what happens when you kill evil mobs. The existing bias which intentionally makes it more difficult to remain good is not cool, it sucks. It's not the kind of challenge that players enjoy, it's just some annoying feature that was added arbitrarily to fit some coders concept of good and evil. From a perspective of playability / enjoyability my peri shouldn't abandon me because I slew the sewer controller or some other mildly good mobile when my alignment was a perfect 1000.

Or at least just tweak it to make it more player friendly by increasing the threshhold of goodness on the mob to about 750 and increasing the frequency that you can cast atonement to 15 minutes instead of 45. This would be more fair / more slothy and require no major code changes.

B: Remove the alignment reduction feature from necromancy spells, another feature that merely conforms to a particular coder's vision of what good and evil is rather than what makes for good gameplay. It doesn't play out well at all to have your alignment gradually reduce from the usage of a particular class of spells. In practice players just resent it rather than appreciate it as some kind of challenge.
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby Dragoth » Wed May 14, 2014 4:48 am

Yes, I and many others, as evident by the previous topics on this matter, do not enjoy the things that you have mentioned.
However, I heard it mentioned that the current alignment system is here to stay, so if it is, why not make it a bit friendlier ?

I know there is a tendency to disagree with my ideas, but, instead of comparing my proposed spell to an automatic permanent skill that allows you to keep/change your align at a whim, only to then brush it away as an absurdity and then offer a complete restructure of the system (which is very unlikely to happen), why not go with my idea, which is neither permanent nor "free" and only allows you to keep your align not change it, and is relatively easy to implement ? And, on top of allowing the immortals to choose a rate of mana cost, duration and level required, a spell like this could be tweaked to only offer a reduction of alignment loss, instead of fixing it in place completely.
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby DarkArtist » Wed May 14, 2014 7:46 am

Because it's a stupid idea. What else to say?
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby Dragoth » Wed May 14, 2014 8:30 am

DarkArtist wrote:Because it's a stupid idea. What else to say?


I'm so glad you said that!


Your post:

I pray that at some point in the future some kindly coder will rethink the mechanics of alignment and do the following:

A: Remove the feature whereby alignment plummets drastically upon the killing of a creature with very good alignment.


My proposal:

But, could I propose a spell, lets call it "Focus Mind" which would allow a particular character with considerable amount of levels, to concentrate his mind enough, just for a good few minutes, to allow himself to kill monsters of the same alignment as himself, without actually succumbing to guilt or worse ?

a spell like this could be tweaked to only offer a reduction of alignment loss, instead of fixing it in place completely


You see the exact same problem that my proposed spell is aimed at fixing, but while you suggest a permanent fix for everyone at no cost and effort, that would most likely lead to a complete redesign of the alignment system, my solution to that same problem is within the boundaries of the system, and it takes up the resources from the player and it can be tailored by immortals, by setting the mana required, level required and duration of the spell, and it does not require any extensive coding.

Prejudice much ? Or are you so hateful, that you consider everything stupid ?
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby DarkArtist » Wed May 14, 2014 4:57 pm

Ok, perhaps the idea of willfully casting a spell on yourself that steels your mind to performing in a manner contrary to your own goodness or evilness isn't stupid. How about counter-intuitive? I do think that the name "Moral Flexibility" is more to the point than "Focus Mind".

Does casting "Focus Mind" reduce your alignment score btw? If it's evil to animate the dead or putrefy your opponents' wounds, then wouldn't it be evil to cast this spell if your intentions were evil in doing so?

Realistically I think the best we can hope to get is minor improvements to the atonement system. You're instead asking for a spell that allows one to bypass alignment.

One final thought... What if good supplicants don't abandon as long as they're not present when the evil deed is committed? i.e. order eudaemon leave room, then kill good mobile, then rejoin eudaemon.
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby Dragoth » Thu May 15, 2014 5:37 am

DarkArtist wrote:Ok, perhaps the idea of willfully casting a spell on yourself that steels your mind to performing in a manner contrary to your own goodness or evilness isn't stupid. How about counter-intuitive? I do think that the name "Moral Flexibility" is more to the point than "Focus Mind".

Does casting "Focus Mind" reduce your alignment score btw? If it's evil to animate the dead or putrefy your opponents' wounds, then wouldn't it be evil to cast this spell if your intentions were evil in doing so?


Alright, since you are starting to argue semantics, you have forced me to find a better name to describe the idea behind this spell - "Conviction", and let's assume this: What if all the people that I had to kill, had to be killed for noble reasons ? Would it make the deed evil or good ? And why can't the idea that killing all these people will be for a good cause, be a result of a spell that you cast on yourself ?

Realistically I think the best we can hope to get is minor improvements to the atonement system. You're instead asking for a spell that allows one to bypass alignment.


I am asking for a spell that will enhance the current alignment system and you are asking for a redesign of certain aspects of the mechanics, effectively changing the system permanently and for everyone, but what would you change it to ? And how would this change be explained by your real-world interpretation of sloth world ?

One final thought... What if good supplicants don't abandon as long as they're not present when the evil deed is committed? i.e. order eudaemon leave room, then kill good mobile, then rejoin eudaemon.


Lol, talk about stupid ideas..
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby DarkArtist » Thu May 15, 2014 6:26 pm

Dragoth wrote:Lol, talk about stupid ideas..


That is precisely what we are talking about.
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Re: Something about Alignment, yet again..

Postby Dragoth » Fri May 16, 2014 4:40 am

DarkArtist wrote:
Dragoth wrote:Lol, talk about stupid ideas..


That is precisely what we are talking about.


Huh? No it's not. The problem is not with supplicants itself, the problem is with wild fluctuations of alignment and complete inability to kill mobs with the same align as a result, which on a smaller scale also affects your supplicants; your offer is to try and fix the limited end result, while completely ignoring the root of the problem and its global effects, hence its stupid.
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