Warriors make better monks than monks

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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby *Splork* » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:54 pm

Didn't I just nerf Second Wind immensely for Sloth IV:)
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby van » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:58 pm

If I'd go with warrior-monk, I'd be great bare-handed fighter and had all warrior benefits as well.


You haven't actually demonstrated this, you know. I'd also point out that at lower levels, without a great deal of +damage gear, riposte is incredibly powerful -- and you can't do that barehanded, y'know.*

I'm not trying to be rude, but until you can demonstrate that a 2x40 Wa/Mo is actually much better at monking than a 2x40 Prime Monk, it's hard to conclude anything but that you're suffering from acute josiaphilia**.

* I don't have numbers easily accessible right now -- anybody care to comment on the awesomeness of riposte? :)

** Also known as being insanely jealous of Josiah's levels, gear, and most of all expertise. Note to imms: please don't add this disease to game. I don't need to suffer this malady twice.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby Hung » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:18 pm

Well, I've created wa/dr/mo. Rolling it. And kicking myself for not keeping roll #67. Maybe in month or so I'll reach 3x40 and prove my point.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby van » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:22 pm

I look forward to you realizing that you'll never hit 25 damage reduction, and posting that monks make better tanks than warriors. ;)
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby Hung » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:44 pm

Thanks everyone for replies. Because of it, my opinion has been changed from "warriors make better monks than monks" to "warriors make even monks as monks". But even if warriors make slightly worser monks, it is still pointless to choose monks. That's my new point, I'll try to prove. Of course, I may get wrong.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby van » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:46 pm

I should apologize for the high levels of snark I've been using. Therefore: sorry!

But MAN it sucks that Skyv can laugh at mobs that hit me for 500/round. :) On an unrelated note, wtb damage reduction gems.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby Hung » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:40 pm

No offence. I understand warriors are worried about second wind may be nerfed again, but I hope that wouldn't happen.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby van » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:32 pm

Not worried about second wind being nerfed. More observing that NO class is immune to being out-classed by a truly high-level character.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby *Splork* » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:38 pm

We have no plans on touching Second Wind again.

Agreed Van 8)
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby Hung » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:00 am

Fine. Now I am assured that this topic won't create problems for warriors, especially ones investing dr in monk eq and playing monk style. Everyone is warned and if they find my reasoning solid, they'll not make mistake by choosing monk prime. So I am happy. Could go on and advance Arador(which is mentioned wa/dr/mo). I'll write here about comparison warrior and monks in monking upon reaching 3x40. Thanks everyone again.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby *Splork* » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:07 am

Hung wrote:. Everyone is warned and if they find my reasoning solid, they'll not make mistake by choosing monk prime. So I am happy.


I've read this thread several times and have not seen one good reason not to make a monk prime!

Sorry :?:
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby Hung » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:28 am

*Splork* wrote:
Hung wrote:. Everyone is warned and if they find my reasoning solid, they'll not make mistake by choosing monk prime. So I am happy.


I've read this thread several times and have not seen one good reason not to make a monk prime!

Sorry :?:


Would you like to buy Yang then? :roll: http://www.slothmud.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4228

I'll combine my reasoning in one place.
Most of the mobs I hit are solid. Ethereal mobs are hit pretty rarely. I clean out xanth ghosts recently for exp. But life without wraithtouch wouldn't be problematic for me. There's enough solo exp in Mansion of Mourned and Mount Olympus, where all mobs are solid. But I do hit solid mobs for eq very often and it seems that I don't benefit at all in barehanded combat against it comparing with warrior monks. Their grip+strike makes close to my focused grip damage. Their 2 strikes per round allow them to make even more damage per round. Of course, situation would change with deathtouch. But, firstly, it is very far way. For the significant part of the game warrior monks would be better monks than me. And even after it, their massive critical hit + 2 strikes allow them to make more damage per round. So, I think, at this stage warrior monks will be even monks as prime monks. So choosing warrior monk means being decent monk(taking into account dam reduce, it maybe slightly worser than primary monk) + gain all warrior benefits. Which means choosing primary monks pointless. Of course, I could be wrong.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby van » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:14 am

Serious question: have you leveled a monk prime past 3x40?

Levels do matter.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby Hung » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:38 am

I did: http://www.slothmud.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4217

Anyway, I suggest we finish this discussion for now. Until I get Arador to 3x40. I totally agree that weak point in my position, that I reason not from real experience running warrior-monk, but from pure theory. As I said I am pretty happy with the discussion results. As my new primary character is warrior, I am glad to hear that second wind isn't going to be touched. So I will enjoy great monk and descent warrior in one.
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Re: Warriors make better monks than monks

Postby Dandelo » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:52 pm

I thought I'd chime in since I heard my name referenced. I play Stilgar, a 4x40 Wa/Mo. I've been building AC gear and don't have the time or drachma for a real damage set. I usually solo with deathgrip and strike, but I never 2nd wind a strike immediately after grip. I just strike 3 times during the grip and switch back to my sword after I release. Van is right, the riposte damage is huge for a mid-level warrior. I also like to use my sword for deathblow. Getting the final blow in when the mob is at 14% health is huge and saves many rounds of combat, also with a movement cost. Between deathgrips to start the fight and the deathblow to finish, there really aren't any extra mvs for me to even use 2nd wind the way it was talked about. 2nd wind is a strong skill, but the mv penalty makes it not overpowered.

The only examples above were regarding 1 extraordinary player playing the game the way he likes and does an amazing job at it. I believe the minimum level to be effective at that type of gameplay would be at least 6x40. It takes a lot of drachma, gems, time and gold to build that eq set.

My $0.02.
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