Suggested Solution for Drachma Eq Problem

[Zlodiak]

Well, talking about mythical -0.8 robe for 3125 drachmas.
-0.8 +max_con definetely shouldn't be 3125+250 = 3375 drachmas.
I'd say it should be about 6-12k drachmas

P.S. I understand it's unreal eq and unreal prices, it's just an example to make things more clear.

[Gorka]

I'd be interested to see your formula Z, please share...

You do raise a valid point though... the value of drachma eq is proportional to how much better it is than in game eq. With the invention of the Roberts Hat, the drachma warrior helms have effectively been downgraded in value.

Using my formula for your -0.8 + MAX_CON robe...
It's 3 AC points over in game eq at about 500 each plus your MAX_CON at 250, so about 1750 drachma.

This is actually achievable in the context of rebirths.

[Zlodiak]

My formula is Price = 5*(-(AC-(best_ingame_AC+0,2))*10)^4.
It works only for good AC items, at least +0.2 AC from best ingame.
For no/low AC items there should be different formula.

1750 drachmas is too cheap price for -0.8 +max_con robe.
1750 is quite easy to achieve and this robe shouldn't be in game at all

[Zlodiak]

Btw, if we can find acceptable trade courses for stats in AC points we can use my formula.
For example, 1 dex = 1 con = -0.06 AC.
MAX_CON = -0.1 AC, MAX_DEX = -0.45 AC
So, -0.5 +dex/con robe will cost 195 drachma.
-0.5 +max_con robe will cost like -0.6 robe - 405 drachmas.
-0.2 +max_dex robe will cost 750 drachmas.
We can change courses to get another results, but the idea is to get every tank item to poor AC and calculate price by AC formula.

[Gorka]

Z, for a formula to be judged as "good" it needs to "more a less" replicate the status quo. The difference between your formula and mine is that mine uses actual avg values based on current drachma eq and is therefore "more in tune" with current pricing, well yours comes in low for small ac and insanely high for high ac (because your formula has an exponential component - ^).

I mentioned at the start, a collaborative solution would need to be sensible. I doubt the immortals are going to be interested in implementing a bunch of max_ac items that totally depart from the normal. Drachma eq tends to run somewhere between in game eq and 3x40 eq in stat and prices. I think we would be wise to stick with this groove.

This in my opinion is an opportunity for players to ensure that at sometime along there player careers it's at least possible to cap in there favorite stats. I'm not sure it's much else. We need to be careful we don't erode the projects credibility. The reason I started to talk about pricing, was to provide a basis to players who will take things to extremes. It's not productive for us to go there.

[Zlodiak]

Let's compare our formulas on pure AC eq:
Walls of Jericho -1.3 +3hpr +20flail dam, best ingame -1.2 (hard to get)
real price: 690, by your formula: 100(?), by my formula: 405 (+bonus for difficulty).
an adamantite-plated knight's war robe -0.6
real price: 350, by your formula: 500, by my formula: 405

Well, not too many pure AC items here.
Let's get some dex, con, max_dex, max_con items, because we both can calculate it now.
First of all, helm.
There is an Olthoi Great Helm in eq list -1.5 +3 resfire
real price: 1100, by your formula it should be 750, by my new formula: 405.
The helm gets -0.2 AC and loses max_con. By your formula it's +2*500 -250 = 750 drachmas.
By my new formula, where i count 1 max_con as -0.1 AC, it's 405.
I didn't count -saves in both cases.
So, both our formulas differs from real price a lot here.

Redsteel Legplates of Hades -1.7 +max_con
real price: 600, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405

Hiddenite-Encrusted Guards: -0.4 +max_dex
real price: 800, G-formula: 250?, Z-formula: 80
It also looks like the price for -0.5 +max_dex in your formula will be 250 too.

Well, max_dex is special stat, let's ignore it yet.
amethyst-inlaid mithril bracers of the Dwarf Lords -0.8 +max_con
real price: 370, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405

a dwarven robe of stoutness/an elven cloak of agility -0.5 +con/dex
real price: 150, G-formula: 200, Z-formula: 195

I'd say my formula replicate the status quo even better than your, while both formulas have some problems and needs to be improved.
Also, it shows some problems with current pricing, i definetely not going to pay 800 drachma for Hiddenite-Encrusted Guards to trade max_con (on my -0.8 +max_con guards) for -0.1 AC.

Just noticed u count -0.1 AC as 500 drachma, not 100, fixed calculations above.
Well, actually, our formulas looks similiar with not too OP items.
With this eq the difference is only at cost of AC/stats.
Your point of AC costs 500, mine 405, your point of max_con costs 250, mine 405.
The real difference will be at ultimate eq, not sure it's even implemented
But i'm pretty sure the price should raise exponentially.

[Gorka]

AC is only priced at about 100 drachma, if the item eq is as good as top in game eq. AC is priced at about 500 for each AC point the item goes over established norms.

Let's compare our formulas on pure AC eq:
Walls of Jericho -1.3 +3hpr +20flail dam, best ingame -1.2 (hard to get)
real price: 690, by your formula: 100(?), by my formula: 405 (+bonus for difficulty).

Incorrect, 500 + drachma for 20 flail (Probably + 100) + drachma for 3HP Regen

an adamantite-plated knight's war robe -0.6
real price: 350, by your formula: 100, by my formula: 405

Incorrect, 500 by my formula.

There is an Olthoi Great Helm in eq list -1.5 +3 resfire
real price: 1100, by your formula it should be, hmm, -50 or something? , by my new formula: 405.

Incorrect, 1000 by my formula + Drachma for Resist Fire.

Redsteel Legplates of Hades -1.7 +max_con
real price: 600, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405

Incorrect, 350 by my formula.

Hiddenite-Encrusted Guards: -0.4 +max_dex
real price: 800, G-formula: 250?, Z-formula: 80

Incorrect, 500 by my formula.

amethyst-inlaid mithril bracers of the Dwarf Lords -0.8 +max_con
real price: 370, G-formula: 250, Z-formula: 405

Incorrect, 350 by my formula.

a dwarven robe of stoutness/an elven cloak of agility -0.5 +con/dex
real price: 150, G-formula: 200, Z-formula: 195

Correct!

It must be noted that robes are normally the best value items. The formula's are only to provide guidelines. Using guidelines makes it possible to compare one item against another fairly. I never suggested that the formula would decide the exact price and that was final. AC is overpriced with Goblets these days.

[Gorka]

Taron has updated the spreadsheet! Slowly things come together...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ufWy039_Pguog7cNETf7oVxuPNeyRYfRd-pYQKhswRs/edit?usp=sharing

* Taron has added the current drachma eq items in a second sheet. I will flag items that are not much better than in game eq next.
* I've also kicked us off with some new sensible item suggestions, based on warrior eq of course... I'm hardly going to suggest bard eq am I... Sochi/Oboe, where are you?

Bring on the flames retards!

[*juggleblood*]

Don't count on goblets or potions in your calculations. They are subject to nerfing. Goblet should prolly be nerfed down to 1 AC instead of 2 and durations cut back on several pots.

Personally I'm still not even sure what the role of drachma eq should be. I'm not a big fan of the idea that the best AC or best hand dam, etc is acquired thru drachma. I'd kinda rather see that the AC, handdam, dam, in drachma shop is comparable to available forges but with some kind of additional bonus. I know that's not the case currently. It's just my 2 cents.

[Zlodiak]

Good news, these goblets are just insane

I'd like the idea to have drachma eq as alternate effects eq with similiar to ingame eq power.
But looks like there is no way to rework it (at least in short duration) without making lots of ppl unhappy or raise the inflation drastically, because we need to nerf drachma eq or to improve ingame eq to drachma eq level. Well, or both of it.

But, we can live with current role of drachma eq, after all we need elite currency for elite eq.
So, fixing existing eq and adding new eq sounds good.

[*juggleblood*]

Ingame eq has been slowing improving tho and will continue to. I've mentioned this many times that I don't feel that builders should be constrained by what is in the drachma shop when they want to create a new forge item. If we have to occasionally revalue the drach gear because it's relative value has changed so be it. Thanks Gorka, Taron, Kid and whoever else is in on the discussions. I'm glad someone is attacking it and I'm happy to implement the changes when you have some concensus on what you want. Ideally Tox would weigh in, look at it when you're done, as I think he was the last person to tackle it as a project.

[*juggleblood*]

One other idea I had about how drach gear could be effectively used, is adding large numbers of items in a similar category at the same time, without having to do the work of building new areas, making new forges, etc.

For example, lets say there were a whole shop full of different drachma lights or a whole shop full of drachma clasps that modify different saves or apply diff resists on different slots. It's a pragmatic solution to adding content, cuz the builder just makes a wide array of this stuff and the players decide what's worth using, like when I threw all those new avatar lights ingame.

[Teron]

And another way to do it is to open the Amazing Gnomish Design Workshop, where players can:
- buy an ac base for an item
- buy affects
- adding to the same effect costs 10% more
- additional (3d, 4th) effects cost 20% more.

This would close two problems:
- the need to draw and discuss new EQ ideas from players/imms
- the need for various and versatile drachma items.

Of course, there should be a mechanism to cap it, like the total amount of power in an item, e.g. based on the level and ac of the base, which is different for each class. I've drafted an initial suggestion, but I need Gorka's points info to create a spreadsheet prototype. And time. I need more time.

Since this opens a huge drachma sink for players, they'll be more inclined to be reborn to get more unique, customized drachma eq.

Of course, the same shop can craft ingame EQ for gold from ingame cps, but it's another story.