Rebirths

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Re: Rebirths

Postby Zlodiak » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:11 am

Josiah wrote:Please respond whether you agree, disagree, or show us your own proposal. It sounds like it is up to us to figure this out.

I like the idea and, especially, it's turnkey presentation.
I suggest to balance it by uniting skills/spells in groups.
For example:
Necro: [Ritual of Resurrection] or [Death Pact and Wraithform]
Cleric: [Aerial Servant and Circle of Healing] or [Dark Mace and Kylas Delight]

Also i suggest to make druid's regen bonus prime skill, SO, for druids it will be:
Druid: [Shield of Thorns and Canopied Arbor] or [Bonus Outdoor Regen and Shapeshift Form to Form]

I still vote for removing second wind, warriors have too many kewl prime skills already :)
Warrior: [Parry and Riposte] or [Massive Crit and Heavy Armor Proficiency(counted as for prime wars)]

Monk: [Focus and Kensai and Wraithtouch] or [Presage and Prediction and Deathtouch]
Mage: [Mirror Image and Blizzard] or [Reflection and Frostbolt]

Thieves have poor prime skills, may be we should add some bonuses to compensate innate bonuses, like:
Thief: [Apply Poison and Sleight of Hand and 1 hit] or [Circle and 1 dam]

I'll skip bard because i'm not too good with his abilities, i believe it's possible to divide them into 2 similiar groups.

With this division we'll be limited to 14 rebirth, which is quite a lot and all of them looks quite attractive.

I also support the idea of picking two of bonuses and caps for them. But +2 hit, +10 hp, +10 mana and 1mil exp cap looks not so powerful as other bonuses.
i'd suggest minor changes, like:

-0.2 AC (maximum 5)
+1 dam, bonus handdam, and bonus weapondam (maximum 5)
+10 bonus spellbonus (maximum 5)
+10 bonus heal spellbonus (maximum 5)
-2 bonus spell saves, -1 bonus other saves (max 5)
+1 million xp cap +2 hit (maximum 5)
+2mr (no maximum)
+25 hp (no maximum)
+25 ma (no maximum)
+2 bonus undead control (maximum 5)
+2 bonus charisma +1mr (maximum 5)
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Teron » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:07 pm

Zlodiak, you put skills and spells in arbitrary couples. Not only sometimes unevenly, but why should it be one combo, not the other?

What if I want kensai and presage? juju and death pact, and wraith is good as it is?

Simply picking two (or two of the same class) would be more elegant, however I guess there can be only one skill from a class, or all, because otherwise it seems very odd to take two skills first, and the 3d skill later - and one skill from another class?
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Josiah » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:41 pm

I don't think Zlodiak's grouping were arbitrary. He grouped the skills that belong together, and then broke up the strongest skills into different groups. I like the idea of grouping them in order to include the less attractive abilities.

Re: Fluffy (deathtouch)
Previously learned skills are not level-gated. As a level 1 reborn character, you already have deathblow, double stab, and avatar attack. A reborn monk would have access to deathtouch starting at level 1. That definitely makes deathtouch a viable selection for a serial rebirther. Your stab/grip multipliers suck until you get to 40 thief or 40 monk, but you can start using most skills immediately.

Spells are restricted to those you have the levels to cast. You can't relocate around Newbatia with avatar's blessing, while tossing firestorms at everything.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Filk » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:10 pm

Josiah wrote:Previously learned skills are not level-gated. As a level 1 reborn character, you already have deathblow, double stab, and avatar attack.

I would like to hear confirmation on that tbh. Seems unlogical, but if true, that changes a bit. Not everything though.

Anyway, if speaking about shop, i guess better realization will be if divide effects into 3 groups. And give some points to spend on any of those.

Like 5 total.
3 points: Second wind, wraithform, shield of torns, pets auto assist, no order lag (and so on, not limited by skills actually)
2 point: parry, riposte, dark mace, frost bolt
1 points: shift form to form, mirrors, reflection, arbor, stats like 1 dam, or .2ac, or 2mr etc

But actually i want to hear Breeze opinion about what he thinking to implement now, and what ideas will never be in. To not just puff the air.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Josiah » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:55 pm

Filk wrote:
Josiah wrote:Previously learned skills are not level-gated. As a level 1 reborn character, you already have deathblow, double stab, and avatar attack.

I would like to hear confirmation on that tbh. Seems unlogical, but if true, that changes a bit. Not everything though.


Not sure what confirmation you're looking for. This is definitely how the game works right now. I used warcry, counterattack, and gorge at level 1, and had more attacks than any newbie.

Maybe you're looking for confirmation that this is intended (it wasn't) and that it will continue to work this way (it probably will). It's a cool perk.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Filk » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:10 pm

Josiah wrote:confirmation that this is intended

Exactly. But that just to make things clearer.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby *juggleblood* » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:44 pm

One prime skill from another class seems kinda lame to me. Like over-the-clothes dry humping level of lame. I'd want to adopt a whole skillset from another class, not choose 1 skill. I'm imagining it should take someone about a year to hit 9x40 again? Make it fun.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Filk » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:09 am

*juggleblood* wrote:One prime skill from another class seems kinda lame to me. Like over-the-clothes dry humping level of lame. I'd want to adopt a whole skillset from another class, not choose 1 skill. I'm imagining it should take someone about a year to hit 9x40 again? Make it fun.

I agree, that one skill seems weak.

I also mailed Breeze with question about what he going to do. Guess he will not be against if i qoute that part:
Breeze wrote:in short : stuff gets reset same as josiah for the most part , remort
bonus, then you get X credits per rebirth which you can use to buy
a skill or stat or whatever we add to the rebirth store, similar to
the avatar shop.


So we could start building shop assortment kinda.
And since i agree with JB about "one prime skill seems lame", i stating, that skill cost should differ. Most powerfull cost much. Least powerful cost minimal. So you could pick some setup you like. Even if that gonna be 3 different skills with weak or mediocre power - why not.

I offer to add 7 points. That offer some variety and makes good coombinations.
All 1 point stats picks cant be picked twice on same reborn. Not limited to pick on next though(so you could each time pick 7 different stats, yes. While not stacking same stat, that isnt too bad)

And skills costs

4 points:
- second wind
- massive critical hit
- deathtouch
- apply poison
- shield of thorns
- ritual of resurrection
- wraithform
- frostbolt
- adaptation to circumstances
- remove order lag

3 points:
- parry
- riposte
- heavy armor profiency(warrior variant)
- wraithtouch
- mirror image
- dark mace
- aerial servant
- call of the sidhe
- song of the mist
- dance of the seven luck gods
- extra 40 count in supplication/animate dead spells

2 points:
- focus (actually its direct kensai, if skills keeping on level 1 will be set as valid behavior. And same for other upgraded skills)
- presage(prediction)
- circle
- sleight of hand
- shapeshift form to form
- canopied arbor
- death pact
- reflection
- blizzard
- circle of healing
- kylas delight
- dance with the dead
- knights blessing (knights prayer)

1 point:
- 1dam 1 handdam 1 weapondam
- 2mr
- .2 ac
- -2 to all saves
- +10 to spell/heal bonus caps, +2 to other caps
- 10 spellbonus
- 10 healbonus
- 2 charisma, 2 undead control, 2 system shock
- 2 reduce damage
- 50 mana
- 50 hp
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Teron » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:23 am

1. Agreed, JB, more skills is more fun.

2. Fluffy, I thought we agreed on bonus bonuses.

Raising caps isn't nearly as good as buying actual bonuses, yet they cost the same point you can spend on +dam +hd +weap dam.

If you suggest standard bonuses, then they'll be capped eventually by rebirthing, unlike ac, dam or regen, and to get +10bsb/bhb by your variants one would have to spend 2 points for it., which is a bit expensive, compared to a prime skill for 2 points or -0.2ac for 1 point.

That's why it's simpler and more effective to apply 10 bonus spell damage or heal for 1 point.

3. +2 to other caps is too low for flail, stab dam or circle, compared to +2cap to charisma/UC.
Not to mention that I suspect a bard would love to get bonus charisma, rather than +2 to his normal cap.

4. A ritual of resurrection is probably worth 3 points, not 4.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Filk » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:58 am

Teron wrote:2. Fluffy, I thought we agreed on bonus bonuses.

Raising caps isn't nearly as good as buying actual bonuses, yet they cost the same point you can spend on +dam +hd +weap dam.

If you suggest standard bonuses, then they'll be capped eventually by rebirthing, unlike ac, dam or regen, and to get +10bsb/bhb by your variants one would have to spend 2 points for it., which is a bit expensive, compared to a prime skill for 2 points or -0.2ac for 1 point.

That's why it's simpler and more effective to apply 10 bonus spell damage or heal for 1 point.

We agreed while it was plain bonuses. Now we have whole shop. My intend was to shrink list of stats a bit. And i assume noone will buy charisma, uc, flail, kick. Because they are just weaker and not worth to spend a points on them. So i added their caps to overall cap group, just because "why not". Values could be adjusted for each of them for sure, i am not really familiar about how big their values are ingame.

About heal/spell bonus. If you look at avatar shop, you will see, that 10 spellbonus is 30bils. And 1dam/hd/wd is 38bils iirc about handdam price(its 8? right?). So its close to each other already. And wd is overpriced a bit imo.

If you add 10 caps to spellbonus, price should be doubled probably. And i really think, that 10 spellbonus is near equal to 2 dam(without stab compared). So i put it on such manner. If you want to raise all caps, you do it. If you fill that you need more bonus to clear eq slots, you pick spell bonus.

Shrug. That could be made as separate 10 bsb and 10hbb. A bit too high imo. And i dont know what to do with other caps, because noone will ever pick it in separate manners. As least my feeling. Maybe it should be not 10, but 7-8 then to be compared with dam values? But in that case hd and wd should be bonused as well. So it makes alot of questions actually...

Teron wrote:3. +2 to other caps is too low for flail, stab dam or circle, compared to +2cap to charisma/UC.
Not to mention that I suspect a bard would love to get bonus charisma, rather than +2 to his normal cap.

Nods. I said about that. Caps could be adjusted to more fair values. Bonus charisma is something even bard will never pick probably.

Teron wrote:4. A ritual of resurrection is probably worth 3 points, not 4.

Well. I actually surprised that you agred on all other skills. Thought that will be heavy fight about values :)
I think Juju is powerfull enough to cost 4. Maybe i am wrong, i never played with it, so cant say how much power it would add actually. We could hear prime necro opinions on that probably. But adjusable anyway for sure.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby *Splork* » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:52 am

I think the most balanced route would be to allow one prime skill every other rebirth while allowing bonuses every rebirth.

We already had people reach out to us to with what we gave Josiah. Add on top of that some of the proposals here and plenty of people are going to rebirth.

We are completely unsure of the rate people are going to rebirth but I firmly believe it is going to be much shorter than a year. We do know that the rate will increase with each rebirth, that is common sense. We are completely unsure of how much power we are adding to the game but I am pretty sure most of us agree its quite a bit. We are completely unsure of the affect its going to have on the game in general.

Personally, I feel that its always better to error on the side of caution and adjust accordingly, especially when we are entering something as blindly as we are...
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Teron » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:32 am

Fluffy, I didn't look closely at other skills, but resurrection stood out.

I am simply saying that bards don't get charisma, but they should have the same fair opportunity to get it, even if they don't choose to get it. But they need the fair chance - that's equality. You can't decide for them, especially, if you haven't played a bard.

Personally, I'm 30-50% sure Sochi would pick +2 bonus charisma.

+dam +hd +wd = 38bil
-0.2 = 60bil
10 sb/hb = 30bil
It means that either we need to remove -0.1ac or add spell/heal bonus or make it bonus sb/hb.

Bonus bonus is the easiest way to handle addition of bonuses, rather than mixing and matching eq, caps, avatar shops, etc.

Yeah, I guess hd/wd could be bonus as well.

Splork, it depends how exciting you want the rebirthing process to be. If you want to turn it into a 15 year grind - without pwipes - then yeah, one skill every other year. In comparison, though, even one skill per rebirth seems not enough, because it's a huge investment. I don't see how 6-12 months of game play can be considered "not enough" to get one more skill. In 15 years the player base will change completely, you won't see many ppl hit 9 rebirths, let alone 15 or 20 to get the most useful skills.

A 9x40 avatar can get about 500bil exp in 6 months. Since reborn are leveling from low levels, I don't expect the leveling speed to be lower, than 6 months, unless the person is being helped a lot.

I'll repeat that the power should be handled by tougher areas (and also by a more or less linear progress), not by being exceedingly and detrimentally cautious - it doesn't hurt to be reasonably cautious. At least that's how it's done in WoW. They increase player power by a fixed amount every addon and add a raid expansion with 1-3 raid areas, and they did recently change power progress to linear from a geometric progression, because in 5-7 iterations different player levels were just too different in power.

So linear progress is probably what you mean by power balance, and I'd agree with that.

Also, what KPIs will you use to determine, if you are too cautious?
If remorts exp gain of "+X-50%" is less than 10%?
When exactly will you look at the KPIs and decide whether you've been to cautious or not cautious? 1 year, 3 years, or 5?

Without specifying these numbers, chances are rebirthing will remain as it goes in, and on any suggestion we'll hear, "but it's not clear if the players are too powerful, let's not rush it'.

Perhaps we/you/all of us need to define how to measure power progress and provide linear metrics, which it'd follow.
Last edited by Teron on Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby *Splork* » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:58 am

Splork, it depends how exciting you want the rebirthing process to be. If you want to turn it into a 15 year grind - without pwipes - then yeah, one skill every other year.


I would be perfectly happy seeing the game be overpowered so we could wipe and restart with some fresh ideas so that the game wasn't as much of a grind :mrgreen:

A sure way to do this would be to add all the prime abilities of another class every rebirth, add in all the fun spell/heal bonuses, dam bonuses, etc, and with the rate I believe rebirthing will happen. Trust me, if this happens even I will dust off my sloth shoes and play again but eventually it would lead to a restart or the end of Sloth because the game can't handle it.


I'll repeat that the power should be handled by tougher areas,

We can't be expected to balance an entire game with areas created over the course of 25 years for a new feature when we can balance that feature around the game(as any good administration would do).

This would be a good time to accept Immortal applications if anyone wants to start building new areas for these players...

Its just my opinion and I have been wrong plenty of times. Only time will tell :idea:
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Teron » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:09 am

I meant that whatever we do with rebirths, avatars at 9x40 will be however more powerful, than they were before. This would require tougher areas (they already need them, even).

I've edited my post to address the idea of linear progress.

This concept alone can handle power balance, and all we need to do is to define how to measure power, measure it and to scale it linearly through eq, avatar shop and rebirths.

The least we can do is to measure current power growth and continue it with the rebirths at the same rate, and worry about it being linear or geometric later.
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Re: Rebirths

Postby Filk » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:17 am

it would lead to a restart or the end of Sloth because the game can't handle it.


Well. That might happen. Who knows. But that will give new cycle at least for several years.
I dont think in nearest five years we will get to the end, even if 3-4 ppl will do 10 reborns for that time.
They still will not splork epics, i dont doubt about it :)

Atm we at dead end. Make reborn so cautious as you offer, and most will pass on it.
We have about 10-12 active or semi active avatars. I really hope that addition could return at last half more. And few of them even do 3-4 cycles probably. But still, thats several years of constant(!) playing.

Most skills are not that much power addition, as just huge diversity of play style. Some skills even dont work together.

And area fixing isnt that bad actually. You dont need to do it all at once :)

About immortal application - i offer to make some page with more technical details. I read mudl docs you gave to me, they see really unfinished. Tytorials dropped on the middle. No actual info about procs or kvps, except little introduction. Some information probably hidden in help files that not available to mortals. Maybe thats wrong. Why not give some actual info to ppl who want to know how it works inside before they make application :)
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