Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby Teron » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:12 am

So, if there's a BIS prime item, won't there be a slightly worse non-prime item with similar stats? That's the assumption I have, when I suggest prime eq.
If we get prime eq, but no adequate non-prime eq for the slot and role, then it's a sucky choice and we need the variant, where both primes and non-primes can fill a slot to accomodate their role/style.

Again, primes have higher caps, so they need more primary stats to reach them, which is what prime eq allows them to do. If there's no prime eq, then primes will need more items to fill their caps, which means they'll have less other stats (ie, more hd instead of -saves/spelldam/hitroll), so it only gives a marginal advantage to primes.
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby Gorka » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:35 am

Why don't you make a non prime item that attaches an "item specific prime clasp" with a few more bits and pieces? Best of both worlds...
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby *juggleblood* » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:33 am

Sleeves of Black Ice are monk prime 30. I personally think it's kinda lame that at 9x40 a player is wearing the same equipment as a newb. You guys were talking about linear progress, well to me equipment is an obvious candidate for applying some sort of linear progress.

And you guys are repeating your same thoughts as if I don't understand. I kinda agree that it would be cool if the classes were more specialized thru the application of UPPER END prime gear (think 7x40+). But as Alris and Josiah have pointed out, this would be going in a new direction. There is no having it all ways. We change paths or we don't.

Lemme submit to you an imaginary piece of super top end monk arm gear:

Gorka Skin Sleeves, 40 Avatar Restricted
.6 AC, 3 HD, +1 hit, +2 Dam Reduction, +2 hp regen

Now, the question I put to you. Would the game be better off with that piece as Prime, or non-prime? And a second question, what should be the role of drachma equipment, i.e. which equipment should be drachma, and why?
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby alris » Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:57 pm

I have to point out that sleeves of black ice are reward for ingame autoquest. One for monks, similar to the others for each class. And while that those quest rewards equipment probably was not intended to be used all the way up to 40 avatar, and some of those probably not good enough to be used at all... The valor sword is a a same type of prime-autoquest-reward item and its decently good, and with attached clasp it is brilliant enough to be used up to 40 av (unless you are Josiah). What I am trying to say - I always felt its a bit unfair that other classes prime aq rewards are not up to par to warrior one. My idea to maybe revise those autoquests rewards and also add ingame clasps for every item to bring the stats even higher in later game. Of course clasps should be hard to obtain, similarly to valor sword clasp. So if you feel that those sleeves are adequate for their level, you can add clasp to boost them. Can always make those in forge1 clasps, forge2 clasps (emerald gauntlets anyone?), to break it in smaller steps than from 1x40 to 9x40.
P.S. I am not monk, but +hp regen on monk sleeves? seriously? 2? make it 20hps or I dont know, 20 moves maybe.
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby *juggleblood* » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:23 am

I'd rather see a variety of available clasps for a given slot, rather than taking up the clasp slot to bring lower level equipment up. For example, I'd rather see better sleeves than black ice for higher level, without having to give up the arm clasp slot to do it.

How many players support using 1x40 gear all the way thru to 9x40? Such as valor or sleeves of black ice? Only 5 people in this conversation. It's hard to get a feel for what people want to see.
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby Teron » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:25 am

I've been drafting this post since the thread started, so it's a bit long.

1. About stats on prime eq
- mo prime sleeves have -dam reduction, a good stat on its own, so prime sleeves should have -dr too.
- there are gloves of yellow rose prime mo +3hd, which are better for monks, than the 1k drachma Godhand, because they don't cap HD to benefit from +bonus hd.
That we have +2hd on mo prime sleeves, doesn't mean we can't have +3hd for a 9x40 prime slot.
- we measure progress by 40s, there could be items or upgrades (similar to emerald gaunts) for every 40:

Prime sleeves:
20mo -0.4 +2hd
30mo -0.5 +2hd -dam reduction
2x40 -0.5 +2hd +hit
3x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit
4x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit -dam reduction
5x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit -dam reduction +max str
6x40 -0.5 +2hd +3hit -dam reduction +max str
7x40 -0.5 +3hd +3hit -dam reduction +max str
8x40 -0.6 +3hd +3hit -dam reduction +max str
9x40 -0.6 +3hd +3hit -2dam reduction +max str
This is for monk prime.

For non-prime:
2x40 -0.5 +2hd +hit
3x40 -0.5 +2hd +hit
4x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit
5x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit
6x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit +max str
7x40 -0.5 +2hd +2hit +max str
8x40 -0.6 +2hd +2hit +max str
9x40 -0.6 +2hd +2hit -dam reduction +max str

It also seems that +2hd for the slot as the limit seems low even for non-prime. Please tell me I'm not alone to think this.

2. Adding +2hpr is pointless thanks to contemplation or +100hpr in fights.
If you want to add a minor stat, consider +hit, -saves/+3-4 spell bonus or +3mvr.

3. So, the item stats you shared belongs to non-primes, but there could be a better prime piece.

Please explain to me, why we can't have both: a powerful non-prime item progression and a more powerful prime eq for the same slot.

4. Drachma items should have at least 2 major stat advantages over ingame eq for the slot, including prime eq.
I'm not sure, how to combine that with prime/non prime eq: we get prime and non-prime items for the same slot/role. Then again, if we do have them, we can filter them in shops by: list prime or list nonprime, or list arms.
Last edited by Teron on Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby alris » Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:57 am

*juggleblood* wrote:I'd rather see a variety of available clasps for a given slot, rather than taking up the clasp slot to bring lower level equipment up.

That I agree. It could be quite fun to customize item with clasps to fit your own preference. Too bad, what can be a good example of it – daiphanous gown – is not, with non-detachable clasp its something that requires clasp to be of use, just to be an item. Another example, works for caster classes, tanzanite over herbalist clasps(though as I understand, herabalist clasps for casters are too much better than tanzanite even for soloing). Yet, it could be intresting, to play some with clasps. For example: armor clasp versus damage or spell damage for one item, mana versus mana regen etc.
About sleeves of black ice. I am not talking about all the prime eq, only eight prime ones from autoquests. Those imho should be a bit more important due to aq origin. Unlike others, those cost drachma after all and could be sold. If not uprgrading with clasp, stats could be buffed with upgrading item itself, with level restricted autoquests, requiring at some step giving up original black ice and receiving improved ones. No?

Teron wrote:Please explain to me, why we can't have both: a powerful non-prime item progression and a more powerful prime eq for the same slot.

As long as there are adequate counterparts, should be all ok.
Only ingame shoulders with +damage are prime thief? Not very appealing. But now also autoquest and long forge ones without prime restriction? All fine with the world.
I think its a fine stats progression for prime and non prime you made. 2hd might look low if you don't consider others stats. Comparing .6 2hd 2hit drduct mstr to .4 2hd? Definitely good improvement.
About drachma - there is also a matter to consider which item should be drachma or not, as of now i dont really see much of pattern. Some items in shop are totally useless, some are mediocre, some are the top of the game, so how its actually decided which top item is brought by forge and which by shop?
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby *juggleblood* » Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:23 pm

alris wrote:so how its actually decided which top item is brought by forge and which by shop?


No clue. I think Tox was last to work drachma gear.
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby *Splork* » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:50 pm

I had tried to add something similar to what teron suggested 3-4 years ago but it got too complicated so I gave up...

Here is a link to the item stats and all of the items are actually already created...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxlug1EQ2gzNS3l3T2FyNW1zZm5BZVZzc0stX2xTcnRmLUFJ/view?usp=sharing
71580 7259 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 2x40
71581 7260 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 3x40
71582 7261 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 4x40
71583 7262 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 5x40
71584 7263 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 6x40
71585 7264 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 7x40
71586 7265 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 8x40
71587 7266 0 sword brilliant valor autoquest 9x40
71588 7267 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 2x40
71589 7268 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 3x40
71590 7269 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 4x40
71591 7270 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 5x40
71592 7271 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 6x40
71593 7272 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 7x40
71594 7273 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 8x40
71595 7274 0 leggings silk crystalline autoquest 9x40
71596 7275 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 2x40
71597 7276 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 3x40
71598 7277 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 4x40
71599 7278 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 5x40
71600 7279 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 6x40

*** Press return ***
71601 7280 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 7x40
71602 7281 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 8x40
71603 7282 0 sleeves molten lava autoquest 9x40
71604 7283 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 2x40
71605 7284 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 3x40
71606 7285 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 4x40
71607 7286 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 5x40
71608 7287 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 6x40
71609 7288 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 7x40
71610 7289 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 8x40
71611 7290 0 orb magical enhancement autoquest 9x40


etc etc etc
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby Teron » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:55 am

Alris, it seems we do need some sort of a calculator/algorithm to come up with drachma prices and to see, which items are more useful and should be drachma instead of ingame.

Splork, where exactly did it get complicated?
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby Gorka » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:26 am

To sort out some "basic" values of stats... You need to simulate battles using these variables...

* Number of Rounds to Kill simulated Mob
* Avg Dam taken by Tank Per Round
* Average Number of Player Attacks
* Number of Stabs Thief Lands
* Total Combat Time in Seconds

I simulated a battle based on 15 rounds, tank taking 250hp's per round and the thief landing 2 stabs...

From that I worked out...

Circle Dam, Kick Dam, Flail Dam, Spell Bonus would appear to be of equal value.
Stab Dam - Should have been 4x cheaper, because as far as I know it's damage is only done once per mob.
1 Weapon Dam - Probably the same value as 5 Circle/Kick/Flail/Spell dam.
Hand Dam, Dam - To difficult to quantify because of hidden game mechanics and multipliers but more than weapon damage.

Move Regen - 3x less valuable than 1ma regen. (Class dependent value)
Hp Regen - 4x less valuable than a 1ma regen. (Class dependent value)

5 moves - 12x less valuable than 5ma (Class dependent value)
5 hps - 20x less valuable than 5ma (Class dependent value)
5 Heal Bonus - 4x more valuable than 5ma
1 Dam Reduct - 2x more valuable than 5ma

Value of Saves -> Spell, Breath, Para, Petri (NOTE: Spell Saves is incredibly valuable but difficult to simulate)

Stat Points - STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS Arguably of equal value.
Max Stat_Points - Arguably double stat point value, however some MAX_STATS are more valuable than others.

Perm Spells - Need to crunch mana cost, benefit vs time duration.

--------------------------------------------------

Now... the difficult comparison between Damage and Mana Regen....

The combat time of my simulation was over a minute, which meant 1ma regen had lead to me acquiring an extra 1ma, or in damage terms 1/25th of a firewind... If a firewind does 200hp damage for 25ma, then that 1ma regen effectively did 8hp damage to the mob during the fight. This however is nonsense... as damage only operates during a fight, but mana regen is always operational... and unlimited mana is unlimited power. The link between mana and damage is completely subjective, dependent on your simulation... however based on the theory that 25ma regen per minute equals 200 damage per minute, it would appear that most forms of damage are worth more than mana regen, but in cases where damage is not multiplied, the value probably isn't that far from similar. I suspect that a player who solos, may spend as little as 12.5% (1/8th) of there time actually fighting, meaning that the price of 1 weapon damage for instance, probably isn't that far off the price of 1ma regen.

Originally I stated that all stats could be worked back to mana cost in order to calculate a fair price. But on second thoughts, I think it would be better to calculate them back to the base which is either "dam inflicted" or "mana" depending on what the stat is, then set a value for "dam" or "mana" and multiply them out based on their values. In some cases I think shop prices are fine, or more a less correct... other times I feel they are completely outside a margin of error which I think is acceptable. The values don't all have to be different, you could set up groups, like the the tiers in gems... that works more a less ok.

You could cross check your results with common sense... the most expensive stats should be... DAM, HAND_DAM, SPELL_SAVES, MANA_REGEN, MAX_DEX etc

SPELL_SAVES is potentially the same value as DAM and HAND_DAM damage multipliers.
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby alris » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:03 am

Simulating battle is somewhat lacking approach. Too much of details too easy to miss. First of all you are not taking in account that Sloth is heavily group-oriented, so worth of mana and mana regen in fight might be very high for a healer, due him not taking hits and doing damage directly. Another one - stab-splork-runs, which after heavily depending on damage would make good light of mv regen and mana regen. How are you fitting spells cast on player and mob in battle simulation, they are vaguely dependent on mana and mana regen, but most cast before fight, how attunement fits? But you are right about stats being not equal for different classes. And sometimes its actually not equal for different classorders in same prime. And sometime you would chose one stat over the other in just a different sets of equipment.
Imho calculating stat worth, or finding algorithm for it is very unlikely. So far its one at a time approach for every equipment slot, with finding breaks in items stat progression, figuring what equals what. I remember earlier on s3 we did simple things like finding how much 1 dex is worth ac wise, or comparing how much mr usually cost in mana points for different equipment parts.
Yet sorting drachma shop out has to be done someday, question is how. We could go for "10 most desirable items for <insert my prime class> " polls, but seeing how much people involved in this discussion, it would probably fail. Maybe its possible to run search on player base and get statistics on what items were bought? That might give incentive to check ones never bought. As for seeing if some of ingame forges/drops should be made drachma, I am all for it, but i doubt imm team would go for it. Like turning ars magica(and i bet ars magica is still one over the top item, leaving all other mr and mana lows far behind) from in game to drachma item might be logical, but doesn't seem likely.
It seems that discussion is a bit derailed, is it ok?
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby Gorka » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:22 am

Yeah, it's only a guide Alris.

Theoretically you could crunch the numbers for all different sorts of simulations, solo, group, stab etc and average them to make it more accurate, but even then... it will still be only a guide...

What this does achieve though, is highlight stats that have grossly inaccurate values. If even that were addressed, it would be a victory.

I like the idea of creating a points system for eq. It's the best way to sort it out.

Things would then need to be re-sorted, re-restricted and then players need to be communicated with clearly, and something needs to be worked out for exchanges and swaps. Should be easy for drachma eq, the value is on the item. I still see a massive amount of eq is old classo restricted... it's been out of hand for years.

It's a massive amount of work, but without it being done, the game becomes a bit of a mockery. At the moment you can work your butt off to get a lord clasp from the epic system, but you can easily buy a -2 ac temp potions at a shop and use almost as if they are unlimited. It's just crazy unbalanced.

We haven't even discussed issues with TEMP eq either... besides forges, what is the relevance of this eq in s4? There was a bit of chatter about in a group I was in recently... not sure if anyone saved the log...
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby Teron » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:16 am

If we talk about drachma items, then these could work:

Prime drachma
9x40 -0.6 +4hd +4hit -3dam reduction +max str

Non-prime drachma
9x40 -0.6 +3hd +3hit -2dam reduction +max str

Incidentally, the stats for non-prime drachma and prime ingame eq are the same, so they could be the same item, except given to monks for a quest forge. The quest can be prime, with the personal reward.

P.S. Alris, please break your new posts in smaller paragraphs, separated by empty lines. Thanks :)
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Re: Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

Postby alris » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:15 pm

Gorka wrote:We haven't even discussed issues with TEMP eq either...

Whats an issue with temp eq aside from it being vastly under-powered?

Teron wrote:P.S. Alris, please break your new posts in smaller paragraphs, separated by empty lines

translate: you talk too much!

Don't forget that game is all about reaching 40 avatar, not playing one. And while I disagree with that notion, i can accept that somewhat. Should the drachma item focus be 8x40 or 9x40 items, as ultimately top game equipment, or should it be best eq for the ride? That brings a question, what is a main purpose of drachma shops and drachma equipment?

Something forge/autoquest for prime and same thing bought with drachma for non-prime? Does not sound bad for me.
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