So crazy it just might work...

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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby norks » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:36 pm

Daft idea.
The only people who would benefit from opening up the shop earlier would be those who choose to stay at 8x40 + 39 and stock pile XP from the bonus rather than levelling up. As this is already frowned upon, I can’t see why it would be implemented.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby cyprimus » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:56 pm

Essentially there is no way to balance it.

You want it to be 'bearable' for lowbies... 50 bil for a point of max dex is hardly bareable for a max avvie. If i could have done it at lower level, i would have.. so i would likely still be a valker leeching from groups and not contributing at all.. but i would have dracma!

Max avvie exp is actually low compared to 6x40 or higher. So would have to be higher cost.

What i suggested a while back was allowing unspent exp to be transfered between alts, again, hard to balance, but easier than avvie shop.. so i could transfer a billion exp from cy, to ... say, curate... he would get about half based on level, and another reduction because of class... so about 40 percent.. one bill becoming 400 mil.. just as an example.. but no one wants to calculate the values.. would always leave someone unhappy..

As for the shop, one hp on a lowbie caster will be worth more than for a high level tank for example.. reverse with mana.. etc.. basically ppl want to cover there weakness, so they will have to pay a premium.

Anyways, i remember ages ago... someone wanted to add a spell that would radically alter the game... it would be short duration, half the amount of damage the person took, and would be more expensive than the highest heal spell was... it was rejected repeatedly... until one mud decided to allow it... and sanctuary spell was born. Now several muds are removing it due to the balance issues... ie-all mobs after level $n are assumed to be killed by somone with sanctuary...

I feel the same about the pit. Its resulted in tokens... player stats, being easy, ac eq becoming pointless, instant mana and hp restores, ppl playing 39'ers.. etc... effectively it is forcing everyone to play damage based characters that abuse 39's and scripts, or become irrelevant. But, a few ppl are enjoying it.. as any shortcut to power with less work..

It comes down to a matter of what the imms and players want.. imms here seem to want sustainability.. plan long term etc.. players want instant power with little effort. One is not gonna happen.. Choose your direction, choose your mud...

anyways. thanks!
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby Gorka » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:05 pm

Well, the thread has disintegrated now... almost amusing, surprised by some fairly deep bitterness coming to the surface about the coliseum...

I don't think there was one idea that everyone liked. I'm disappointed - not because people didn't like my idea, I admitted halfway through that without a price change, opening the shop earlier wasn't going to work. What disappointed me the most was people's lack of understanding that applying mathematical formulas to things insures linear based progression. Idjit's idea around ratio pricing is probably a winning solution, but I swear some of you aren't even interested in trying to even understand it. The situation here reminds me of a sick person who wants to get better but won't see a doctor or take medicines. Comparing everything mathematically exposes imbalances and allows for corrections... this is a fact. The solution to sloth's imbalances will be formula based, I think some people just don't understand mathematical applications to problems. Look, the subjective is important, it's clear some players don't care about maths, and play for the community aspects of sloth - I get that... but the bias towards the subjective was what got imbalances into trouble in the first place, therefore only objectivity can be the solution.

Last night I rattled off a list of everything about this version of sloth that was better since I last played... the list was large, maybe 20 things thanks to the current active immortals. In fact the only things that I noted that were worse were gem pop rates and imbalances.

If changes to avatar shop are not a solution to this, then I think the only other way to fix things is to fix eq... if you thought ideas to change the avatar shop raised a little hell... wait till you try fixing eq... :lol:

It seems there is a grid lock... in this respect the players are to blame. Which immortal would dear make a change with you lot... seriously... Read the thread again... would you want to deal with this? I think we are actually part of the problem, if anything is to change, we need to be part of the solution, by coming up with them, while most seem content just to cold water others ideas without trying to understand them.

So I'm done with this discussion, but if the immortals do agree that some change could be made to the avatar shop or to fix eq imbalances, please talk to Idjit about his idea. Old players might not like it, but no denying it can work.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby *Breeze* » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:03 pm

when Splork and I coded new gempop we had 2 options.

option 1) limit gems popped to a gem/day setup

option 2) mathematically controlling gempop.

we chose option 2. it's pure math. 99% of how it works is posted to forum. Krom Splork and I divided gems to tiers.

we chose things the player could affect for the variables.

you could pop tier 3 all day if people worked together...
as Splork intended.

AFAIR there were no gems last version

gempop special is basically

var = //secret formula based on stuff//;

if (checkgempop(var) == false ) { checkgempop(var); }
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby Ker » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:57 am

Ahoy!

Please understand the nature of how things progressed in S3 and how they evolved into what you see today in Sloth. It is not as simple as "applying mathematical formulas" to insure linear based progression for all parts of the game. The basis of this idea only came up when "mana" was defined as "currency" which made no sense at all. That does not mean I agree to Sloth's leveling mechanics as they are totally whacked out of "linear progression" and also does not mean I am 100% against the idea.

I do understand that your concerns lean on towards the huge gap for any growing class for any growing player. It's not about us not understanding mathematical applications to problems. Like I said, even if the experience points for all the Avatar Shop bonuses got halved, which is a big win for mid tier players, your grind only gets worse. And please do not tell me this gives players "options", you are only digging your own grave. Can you not tell by the other "options" that were made available to players today and what they have transpired to?

Caps were raised twice in view of linear progression. Old school players like myself going through the grind had no choice but to fill the 2nd cap raise through the Avatar Shop. Do you know how much play you have to put in to soak a "Halved Avatar Shop ratio" which translates to 5B exp at 5x40 or 6x40 or 7x40 to gain that +1weapon_dam? I am merely trying to point out that if the pass players were already struggling just to gain levels to play the game at its most basic, what will this ultimately achieve for the present and future?

We are not here to cold water any ideas or solutions players try to share. I for one have completed the game inside out and have no personal goals on Dr. Besides building friends and clannies, I also like to see players on Sloth grow as this only motivates me to play and anchor a support role instead of quitting the game like many others at 9x40. Any player can vouch that a single 9x40 Druid can turn your 100M exp group into a 400M exp group with much ease.

I actually appreciate the level of energy especially from Gorka and Taron combined to drive activity in and outside the game. Players will always be part of the problem like it or not, because without players, there is no Sloth. As of this point, I can only stress that the present grind is what keeps players at bay. There is not a player who logs in, looks at the numbers, feels disgusted and leaves immediately that I do not know of. I put in a lot of time and energy into the game so at any point should activity run, there is always a maxed Druid available to support the cause.

Nevertheless, please do not feel disheartened. My opinions are for anyone to weigh for reasons stated above. I would vouch for an ease of grind whether it be grenade groups, more no-cap days, more chop days and so forth. There are plenty of other solutions I can think of - this certainly is not one of them.

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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby *juggleblood* » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:14 pm

cyprimus wrote:I feel the same about the pit. Its resulted in tokens... player stats, being easy, ac eq becoming pointless, instant mana and hp restores, ppl playing 39'ers.. etc... effectively it is forcing everyone to play damage based characters that abuse 39's and scripts, or become irrelevant. But, a few ppl are enjoying it.. as any shortcut to power with less work..

It comes down to a matter of what the imms and players want.. imms here seem to want sustainability.. plan long term etc.. players want instant power with little effort. One is not gonna happen.. Choose your direction, choose your mud...


My perspective is the overall affect on the game from bird's eye view. And what I see is a select group of experienced players having a chance to play a number alts and trying out different play styles in the coliseum. And I see the magical treasure spawned by that activity is feeding more activity around the mud. People trying out things they never would have tried before because they can toy around with the potions. And I see groups where people share the group fill scrolls, so that 10-20 people don't have to sit on their hands for seven minutes at a stretch. And from an inflationary standpoint, having these max avatars spending time in their lowbie alts, instead of their super-tards is a deflationary thing. Someone could try to balance the pop rates on that stuff, but balance to what? Who can predict how much traffic the coliseum will see in any given month. My inclination is to leave it as is unless we see some kind of major imbalances, which personally I'm not seeing.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby *juggleblood* » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:24 pm

@Gorka

You seem to be getting upset that people don't get your argument, so I thought I'd tell you that yeah, I totally get it. The relative value of the items in the shop definitely dot fit any kind of deductive logic.

The reason it doesn't matter is because it's capped. Since hypothetically if a person played forever, they would cap them all, it doesn't really matter that their relative prices are unjustifiable. You can just accept it and move on.

BUT DON'T YOU WANT TO FIX IT IF YOU KNOW IT MAKES NO SENSE?! ..I hear you asking... Well, no. Because it's grandfathered in and it would only upset people if we changed it now. Someone could spend a lot of time, coming up with a great cost structure and programming in, but all that work would just go to upsetting a bunch of people who've already spent a lot in that shop.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby Teron » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:27 pm

It's just we need to define and follow a few policies for a healthy discussion:
- stick to the topic (no bashing coliseum in a topic of an av shop)
- provide constructive criticism: define the problem, say why you think it doesn't work, offer a solution

Gorka, I don't think we bashed your idea too much, but we did offer our insight in the topic.

So far, it amounts to:
- if the shop goes in with current prices, they'll be huge for 5x40 players
- if prices are reduced, they might still be destrimental to leveling - or they'll be offensive to avatars, who have to grind billions for them
- if it's in, it's just an option and won't boost players significantly, unless they want to stay at 5x40 39 and farm exp for the shop.

So, I guess we can agree to that, and imms can decide, whether they want to put in something that may be used a bit.

Perhaps some feedback from the immorts, who decide on these things, would be helpful, because it seems we've reached a common opinion about the shop or at least clarified the idea further.

@JB,
how about someone does calculate shop stat value algorithmically and the existing avatars get some exp reimbursed, based on what they've bought? That'd make everyone happy.

Of course, if someone decides that hp/mana cost need to scale from 1 and some people might end up losing hp/mana. Oh well.

Maybe we need to do the right thing to the best of our ability, really, because there will always be someone upset?
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby *juggleblood* » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:51 pm

Teron wrote:@JB,
...That'd make everyone happy.


It's not up to me, but you can have my (hypothetical) vote if you think it would make Cyprimus happy.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby cyprimus » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:08 am

@taron

Are you wanting to expand it to all levels or are you wanting to extend the amounts you can get to caps or infinitely?

Who will do the calculations?

What is the goal? Ten years from now another pwipe?

What i am seeing is a desire to boost player base at the expense of sustainability. I have seen to many muds get top heavy and eventually loose everyone/shut down.

And another series of exploits, fixes etc..


@jb
what i was saying on the pit, is, the imms choose to try something different. Not that its bad or good. Every jb knows my opinion on that... I recall suggesting a temp item store... you made it a pit.. close enough.. lol

As my example... sancuary spell would never be added unless imms took risks/tried new approaches, i respect the imms here for that. It may mean rewriting a lot of areas et.c. but its progress.

I suggest a solid backup of pfiles and game before its added at the very least..

@Gorka.
You calculated hp value based on restore... healing is not adding a hp... just example.

Also, what makes you think the shop items are not comparably valued?

I still feel the prices are fair, but i also came here from a mud where you could do unlimited gains.. so can see the attraction of that.

Only imms have access to the real numbers that would be needed to calculate say.. value of one weapon damage, compared to one hit roll.. from my own instricts/years of play.. i think the prices are reasonably valued, but can only guess.. I reached a point with cy where there is nothing game changing left for me.. and i saw myself as blocking other tanks from peaking, so i retired him and worked on alts.

If shops expanded, would love to see what i become..

I am sorry if i am rambling... tired, and turning 46 tommorow... so for some reason cannot loose the song 46 and 2... seems appropriate for this discussion though. regardless of what taron says..
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby Teron » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:46 am

cyprimus wrote:@taron

Are you wanting to expand it to all levels or are you wanting to extend the amounts you can get to caps or infinitely?

Who will do the calculations?

What is the goal? Ten years from now another pwipe?

It's Gorka's idea, you should ask him or read the posts, the answers are there.

Hypothetically, though:
- most powerful stats, such as +dam and +max dex, should be limited or scale at a higher rate, which would make it feasible to buy only several stats, with the exception of persistent players
- medium value stats, such as dam reduction, should be scaled at a normal rate, probably reaching the feasibility limit about 5 points above our current cap
- high volume stats, such as hp/mana/mvs, should scale at a low rate, such as 1.03, giving one ability to go for 200-300-400hps/mana if persistent.

Of course, whoever does work on it, should
- identify the limit, where it's unfeasible to buy stats.
Maybe, when you can get more value for less exp elsewhere. It should also be understood that the feasibility limit will only be reached on 1-2 stats, not all of them.

- research the scalability rates elsewhere, which results they give, and what we want to get here.
My understanding is that we want the feasibility limit to be about 50-80% higher, than current caps, which would allow people to reach their current caps at a somewhat increased rate, with the option to pursue more stats for much more exp.
So, if we set the minimum exp for the first purchase, and the feasibility limit, which is exp required to reach feasibility caps, eg 15th dam reduction or 4-5th damage, we can establish a scalability rate.

As for who should do it, the imms should do the calculations, while players - such as you, Cyprimus, who is familiar with many muds - could research and provide information about such shops elsewhere. I played one MUD with the shop, but I can't login to it.

Practically, I'd appreciate if imms do base shop prices on how useful the stats are and add scaling, allowing us to buy more stats by paying more. As for current prices, they are close, but not precise, e.g. 4bil for 1 stab dam, but 20bil for a dam point?

JB wrote:It's not up to me, but you can have my (hypothetical) vote if you think it would make Cyprimus happy.

I'm not convinced anything will make him happy, but if he gets an exp reimbursement that'd allow him to buy another spell or stat, I don't think it'll offend him much.
Or, the scale could be made so that current caps would cost the same total, so he'd only benefit from being able to buy more of the stats with no guarantee that he'll be happy about it, though.
Last edited by Teron on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby Gorka » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:03 am

I didn't want to post again, but sensing a great idea is dying simply because of mathematics... here we go...

How can a person with poor maths work out ratios etc... Well there are calculators on the internet... and here is the one we need... there are many... keywords GEOMETRIC SEQUENCE CALCULATOR

http://www.wolframalpha.com/widgets/view.jsp?id=2e0e22bf96ca5c5084728a8e748da051

Lets say the current price to buy 1ma is 1b xp.
Lets say the immortals think that it's simply not worth buying mana when 1ma is worth 200b.
Lets say the immortals think that when 1ma is worth 200b, they should have already purchased about 300ma.

Using this information, how can we work out the ratio that needs to be applied to make 1ma (which starts off being 1b...) end up being 200b for your 300ma purchase.

Go to the link above... in the four boxes, top to bottom, left to right type in...

1,000,000,000 term 1
200,000,000,000 term 300

Click Submit, then click Approximate Form... The ratio is 1.01788.

100th mana value: 5,780,448,447b for 1ma
The sum of all numbers until the 100th: 273,143,337,018b

Keep adjusting the calculator until it's correct. Obviously in my example here, YES MANA WOULD BE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE TO BUY... BUT IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE... You can work out sums and nth values here using this Geometric Sequence Calculator...

http://www.calculator.net/number-sequence-calculator.html

With a clever use of mathematics, it's possible to open the shop at 3x40, have the initial mana points at a cost that a 3x40 can afford, scale the cost upwards, until you hit a ceiling where it would take an obsessive compulsive to continue buying that stat at completely unreasonable cost.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby Gorka » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:14 am

So Taron told me off for not going far enough... whats the point in providing the tools, you also have to provide a working example as well, he said! Well I don't like to tell people what to do exactly... I more want to inspire ideas, let people make the idea their own... this is more powerful... Anyway Taron won the argument, so here I am again...

So currently I understand it's possible to buy 100ma for 100b... so here is an idea...

Start Price for 1ma = 300,000,000xp
Ratio = 1.02

100th ma point costs = 2,130,778,270xp
Sum of 100ma points costs = 93,669,691,773xp (Almost the same as the 100,000,000,000 now... clever huh! I thought ahead about the whiners who have already brought 100ma!)

200th ma point costs = 15,436,734,523xp
Sum of 200ma points costs = 772,273,460,680xp

300th ma point costs = 111,833,678,841xp
Sum of 300ma points costs = 5,688,517,620,922xp

Apparently people with an obsessive playing disorder can make 25b xp in a week. Hence for someone to buy 300ma, it's going to take a month of xp to buy 1ma!

300m xp for the first mana point is probably a "consideration" for a 4x40 player in a rare circumstance... but bear in mind... as it has been pointed out, buying stats from the shop may actually harm your progress... so be careful.

And so I point out again... this is a win for everyone, the shop opens earlier, people can buy stats earlier (but at there peril), the cost scales, the caps are somewhat increased for the the elite players of the elite players, some imbalances could be fixed, the world could be realigned, and a 3rd and better person will run for the US Presidency, simple really...

Good bye again.
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby cyprimus » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:33 pm

OK, taron. get to the 99 bil exp barrier... see if you can go over it. If not, then we got a hard cap.
If you can, well... no hard cap..

Till i know if you can go over it, i cannot table anything.

However, i am suggesting formulas; these are just variations i have seen, and assume 99 bil is hard cap. I placed them with the ability i felt most appropriate.

Promils..- as gorka is saying on hp/mana/moves- 1.03 x previous cost. I am not sure about going below 1 bil to start..

For max stats- double cost for each point... so max dex not achievable if 99 bil barrier still holds. But, you could do total +3 max stat for 140 bil total cost. Paying 80 bil for last point.

Damage- this is the hard one..triple cost per tier-- each tier is present cap... so.. first ten weapon damage, 10 bil per, second ten, 30 bil per point, third ten 90 bil per.

UC- I do not know.. sorry. necro never got off valk..someone else would have to do this.. i would do simple doubling cost per tier of 5. so 16/32/64- could get 20 total from shop..

Heal bonus-triple cost per tier. so 3/9/27/81

Spell bonus-double cost per tier 3/6/12/24/48/96-note this will exceed anyones cap.. even mage prime,, so will think of something better if it becomes relevant.

Charisma- multiplier per tier.. not sure whats reasonable.. 3x -5x maybe..hard cap is about same as uc.. so its unique in cost.

Damage reduction first tier as is, additional tiers 3x... so 24/72

AC- 30/60/90 bil per point in .3 point tiers.

Ok, trying to think of other way i have seen over the years.. and remember promils better...


OH, also, another option is coins... presently its 1/1000 exp cost in coins... that can be altered.. even by demand.. so if lots of ppl are buying from avvie shop, cost goes up.. or can do different formulas for gold than exp..

Previously when i have done shops like this, i usually made the coins cost higher for stuff that was not part of your prime class, but with 8 classes.. not sure how that would work out.

Can also see requiring tokens for max stats.. say 25/50/75.. burned when you buy the stat, from your inventory.

Or even one token for each hp/mana/mv you buy etc..



But also, remember, this may actualy hurt groups in the long run, as individuals get so strong they do not need them..






OH, also, consider reduced cost on spell casting? automated systems usually go per spell and require spell tree.. so for example, to reduce the cost of circle of healing in half, you have to have already reduced the cost of cure light, serious, critical, healing, and resto...

And perma spells: do we wanna automate it or keep doing each one as imm decisions..*sorry, bad pun, i will be hiding the next few days..*
Would like to see more spells, but i agree, some just would not work well. Making it hard to automate.

anyways, just food for thought. I think the imms are just finding us sooooo amusing at times...
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Re: So crazy it just might work...

Postby *Breeze* » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:06 pm

code xp cap is like

2,147,483,647,000,000,000 +/- 999 mil or some such. if anyone hit's it i would be amazed.
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