So crazy it just might work...

[Gorka]

I think most players agree parts of sloth are unbalanced, or there progression is not linear. This problem has always been a discussion of hundreds of forum posts and obviously causes friction among players, and among immortals... Is there a solution that is a "win/win" for everyone? It is after all a difficult problem to fix mid way into the game... with old players and new players and changes.

What would a solution look like, is there a solution to this problem?

The way I see it...

* We would need an idea that empowers players to fix there own imbalances, perceived or real.
* A solution that doesn't always chuck the problems back at the immortals to make static changes.
* A solution that goes someway to fixing the relative mess that eq has become.

Couldn't this all be achieved, by making the Avatar Shop 3x40?

Think about how many problems this might solve...

There is not a lot of weapon dam before 4x40... buy a couple from the shop until you get high end eq.
You hate grouping and like to solo, but can't pop your own eq... buy stats from the avatar shop.
You perceive you have a weakness and no imm listens to you... buy it from the avatar shop.
Blah Blah Blah eq problem... buy it from the avatar shop.
You reach 6x40 and you feel you are not progressing as you level 7x40 and 8x40... buy something at the shop.

It would appear that perhaps half of the 9x40 seem to quit playing once they reach the stage when they can actually buy from the shop. I hear a common criticism that more content needs to be added for avatars. I also see a lot of 9x40 remort these days and make a new char.

It seems a little pointless to have a "avatar candy shop" for people who become disinterested in using it when they reach 9x40. Would it not be better to be able to have the things purchased before 9x40, so you can enjoy them on your journey to 9x40?

You get the general idea... what do you think?

Eq will always be the easiest way to improve your char, but in cases of specialization or imbalances, or boredom, at least this way players have a way out to play as they please within the boundaries of capped stats.

The decision becomes 3 ways, should I buy something from the shop, should I level avatar, or should I level another 40. Players love choices, and this gives it to them. I also suspect it would be very very easy to implement.

[*Idjit*]

They might consider opening some-of-the-shop at 5x40, since 5x40 was the old av40 during sloth3.
I believe Splork and/or Breeze already are thinking furtively in this direction, perhaps not with the speed you'd like. But I should clearly let them speak for themselves.

(there are some clear numeric differences in xp cost between old av40 and sloth4 quint40, but...roughly same difficulty, given that our chars are more powerful at 4x40 than a sloth3 char was at 4x40 due to the wider class structure, plus an xp group that a 4x40 is in at avatar-1 trying to get to 5x40/av-10 or av-11 has one or two 9x40's helping them steamroll over things)

...Not so sure about opening all-of-the-shop only at 3x40.
What remains, then is
1) which shop functions would be opened up.
2) would the pricing structure necessarily be exactly the same as the full 9x40 shop.

Done badly, this could make a mockery of the eq restriction structure.

(I'm afraid to say some of the things you want like direct bonuses to say healbonus, spellbonus would probably continue to be jealously guarded and stay only in the 9x40 shop. Universal regular damage and the -0.1 to AC almost certainly.) Or end up double-cost or 150% cost in your 5x40 shop. I like leaving the door open a crack rather than excluding things entirely, but that may not happen.

Done well, this might bring about the results you desire. Some of them.

--D

[Gorka]

Thanks for posting.

Yeah... your point about how it could make a mockery of eq is a clear and present danger I think. However it would also be a good chance to fix caps. Seems silly to have unobtainable caps, might as well open the shops up far enough to make the caps reachable. I don't know if the current caps are class balanced though, but that would need some serious thought before the shops opened up. It easier to stop problems now, than later.

Taron suggested... buying some stats might be off limits to start with and start to open up with 40's. Another way of doing it I suppose.

I'd like to see higher caps on mana, moves and hp's as well. I know some avatars are twiddling there thumbs wondering what the game offers them now.

[Teron]

What I'd suggest is to only have mana/hps/mvs and stab/circle/sb/hb/hand dam/weap dam there. Though it does look lonely without ac there for tanks.

If someone wants to buy 25 spell bonus instead of leveling from 5x40 20 to 6x40 35, it's his choice.

And yes, I support the idea of using logorithmical scale for hps/mana/mvs after 100, so eventually it is not worth buying hps instead of mana. Though I'd expect Katie to get 1hp for 100bil, and it'd be a perfectly reasonable occupation, only to get the next one for 103bil.

[*juggleblood*]

...or so crazy it just might topple the whole mud...

The game already has a natural trend toward acceleration. If you allowed players to focus so much specifically on damage, then that would just accelerate the number of players circling around Lyme in solo and small group, which would resemble the end of times period for last version of Sloth.

Inflation is ultimately the death of each incarnation of the game, when content can no longer keep up with player ambitions. And damage is fundamentally at the core of the game. Inflating player damage inflates everything.

[Gorka]

Inflation... I agree and disagree JB, there can be no inflation... if caps are kept the same. Opening the shop does not necessarily need to increase caps, of course players would want that, I want that... but it doesn't veto the idea that by opening the shop earlier it could allow for more linear progression towards your cap, even if caps are not increased.

I had a few years time out from Sloth after initially playing s4 when it came out, and having maxxed chars in s3... but when I came back a few months ago... I came back to BONUS eq... what started off as a challenge to get -10 is now temp -15, monk have hand dam rings, and druids that got nerfed to pieces at the start of s4, appear to be around the s3 levels or more in form, ac and dam. Gems are hard to get, but I feel drachma and xp is easier in this version... has there been inflation? Totally!

Interestingly though, the player base is still getting smaller, even with inflation getting higher. Player sustainability appears to be worse than s3. Max avatars have a trend to stop playing... A different discussion perhaps. I agree with you in some respects JB, but I think it's the caps that inflate the game... opening avatar shop earlier does not inflate the game.

[Dragoth]

Three cheers for Gorka!

Quite a good idea, adds another layer or character development, which gives us more things to do and all within the existing framework, which serves the game very little purpose at the moment.

Power inflation is always an issue and has to be weighed even when you add a new piece of EQ, but it's quite amusing hearing this from a person who introduced mana restore potions, damage potions and full group restore scrolls to the game. No offence JB .

[Teron]

As for inflation, the amount of stuff from the shop is limited and is almost the same as you can get from leveling avatar to 40, and it's cheaper to level avatar levels, because you get so much from them.

I don't think buying stats and dam will ruin the game, because it's wiser to level, but some people might prefer to tune their chars better.

Given that there are few 6x40 forges that'd ultimately give the same bonuses (+dam, -0.1ac, +10hp), it'd help to be able to buy hps early on.

If anything, that's deflation, because players get exp at lower rates at lower levels, and if they want to spend bils of exp in the shop, while getting 2 bil a week, it'll slow them down.

[*juggleblood*]

Power inflation is always an issue and has to be weighed even when you add a new piece of EQ, but it's quite amusing hearing this from a person who introduced mana restore potions, damage potions and full group restore scrolls to the game. No offence JB .

Common misconception. Splork asked me to rehab the coliseum, which was originally built by Akasha. I did not create a single one of those potions or items. My actions did result in their proliferation, but I was simply doing a task requested of me by a creator. If you think they need to be nerfed say so.

[*Splork*]

JB did an awesome job at fixing up the Coliseum and pushing it to an entirely new level. It is easily one of the best features this game has to offer!

As for the potions, if you guys think they are overpowered, we can easily cut them back...

[Dragoth]

Common misconception. Splork asked me to rehab the coliseum, which was originally built by Akasha. I did not create a single one of those potions or items. My actions did result in their proliferation, but I was simply doing a task requested of me by a creator. If you think they need to be nerfed say so.

I just found it amusing that you'd be the one bringing power inflation up, when your name is the one associated with some of the most inflationary things that happened to this mud in recent times.

But nerfing those things, at this point in time would be pretty unwise. Power is a drug and if you introduce someone to crack, you can't really expect them to just simply give it up when you ask them to.
And I wouldn't really want to be the one, to be blamed for this decision either, so no, I'm most certainly not asking you to nerf them..

[*juggleblood*]

Don't get me wrong, part of me thinks it would be really cool if we craft our characters like that, but I foresee the existance of supercharged high damage characters that dominate the coliseum and get way more drachma from it than people who don't go that route. And it's a common refrain around here, especially from the people most active in these discussions, that when a system is created it "forces" players to go in the optimum direction or at least creates negativity from people who don't opt to go that way. And also I stand by my previous argument about inflation. Chars crafted in this fashion would advance faster and get substantially more drachma available to them through the coliseum.

[cyprimus]

Yep. there overpowered. Nerf away!

[Dragoth]

Don't get me wrong, part of me thinks it would be really cool if we craft our characters like that, but I foresee the existance of supercharged high damage characters that dominate the coliseum and get way more drachma from it than people who don't go that route. And it's a common refrain around here, especially from the people most active in these discussions, that when a system is created it "forces" players to go in the optimum direction or at least creates negativity from people who don't opt to go that way. And also I stand by my previous argument about inflation. Chars crafted in this fashion would advance faster and get substantially more drachma available to them through the coliseum.

But Coliseum is not the game and the game is not Coliseum.

Regardless of that, why would you be worried about someone getting an extra few kills in Coliseum if they spend extra time getting and spending billions of exp to get stats to get more kills in Coliseum. That is the most common thing I've seen people do, preparing for months, getting drachma eq, cheating with 39s, just to get their way. I've seen Tembikai go from 15 kills to 50 in about a month, and now you are telling me you are worried that someone will have the audacity to spend billions of exp to buy an extra strength point, just to get their way in Coliseum ? Come on dude, lets be real here, this doesn't have any potential to become a real problem and neither does this go against the concept.

I suggest avatar shop is introduced at 5x40, at 3x40 you get your 3x40 EQ, at 4x40 you get access to avatar levels and 5x40 makes the best logical choice as it's where people get a little bit worn out, as the classes that they wanted to level first of all, are all behind them and the future is a bit bleak.

[Teron]

And it's a common refrain around here, especially from the people most active in these discussions, that when a system is created it "forces" players to go in the optimum direction or at least creates negativity from people who don't opt to go that way. And also I stand by my previous argument about inflation. Chars crafted in this fashion would advance faster and get substantially more drachma available to them through the coliseum.

As I was one of the persons behind the idea that the game motivates you to get drachma, allow me to pipe in on this.

Since then I've changed and narrowed down my opinion to:
- it's a game with numerous choices, and it's your choice, whether you level to 5x40 or wear 40s one by one through the coliseum. It's a game, that's a choice, let's respect that.

- trying to max in coliseum is only worth in the first 3-5 levels. As levels get harder, you get much less for much more effort. E.g., the effort I spend to get the extra +5spell bonus from another interwoven circle just for coliseum is insane and I wouldn't recommend.

- as I said before, by spending exp on stats in the shop, players significantly slow them down in terms of max levels, skills/spells and (max) avatar levels. It is not worth doing it at 3x40. It's vaguely worth it at 5x40, and it's probably worth doing it at 8x40.

- a singular improvement (-0.1ac, +1dam) won't make a statistically significant difference, because the mob diference has higher influence. You'd invest 50bil+ exp to achieve a noticeable difference, and at lower levels this is not feasible.
I played a MUD with the meta shop available from the start, and it was just helpful, not overpowering. You still needed to achieve top rank to be able to get much more exp that's required to get lots of hps.

- postponing leveling for months for 10 drachma at higher levels is probably not worth it, since we regularly get imm-run quests. If imms continue to run quests as they do this year (great work!), then I don't see huge reasons to top coliseum at later levels other than for records instead of drachma.

- popping eq and writing scripts are noticeable parts of the game, and coliseum lets you perfect yourself. Some people may favor these parts, so I don't see anything wrong in them. I favor groups over scripting, so even though I advocate using scripts, this is not the most important part of the game for me.

So, in short, coliseum is a part of the game, allow players to enjoy it as they see fit.
If we make another part of the game available to more players, it'll make the game more fun for more people.

Let the 1000 blossoms bloom, I say.