Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

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Re: Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

Postby Teron » Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:47 am

Teker, I'm getting my numbers from the randomized exp counter, from some hours of experience - but, unfortunately, no statistics. Overall, however, say, about 10-20-30 hits, do give a fairly objective, if blurred, picture of damage.

I believe you that my base damage has doubled, but I barely noticed it. I know Stun does great damage, but 95% of our warriors are not Stun or Cyprimus, so let's work with the base damage, and how we can scale it up to 9x40. You can look at 3-5x40 warriors, if you want to see, how broadside damage compares to other skills.

As a tank, it means I don't want to use broadside to do miniscule damage, because it lags, or to stun mobs, because there's a chance it'll put me on my back, unable to rescue or heal self.

As an assisting warrior or in solo, I can wind or flail. With capped flail, flail does more damage. The only drawback is, when you land the flail after the mob dies.

I haven't tested the knock-back level yet, but for damage, this skill is fairly useless.

Could you describe us, where in the damage skill list you (or you and imms) want to place broadside and flail, so you'd set our expectations right?

You probably should take scale damage with weapon damage more, if you want to
- limit tank damage
- make it useful for assisting warriors, who wear weapon damage eq.

Perhaps, it's the 4x40 warrior, who should be doing 60-80 damage with a broadside in ac, not a 8x40 warrior in a +12 weapon damage set.

Also, I support the public damage display for skills. It adds satisfaction in seeing the damage numbers you've worked so hard to produce. So far, only healers see the exact numbers of their heals - and it has yielded no wild pestering, to my knowledge.
Last edited by Teron on Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

Postby Gorka » Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:02 pm

Kiss Juggleblood.
Highfive Taron.
Pat Teker.
Lick Zuzu.
Worship Breeze.
Taunt Sam.

Lay off teker guys! It's not his fault that our lack of weapon dam eq still renders broadside pretty undesirable for us mid-bie warriors.

But a few pointsTeker... don't compare other warriors to Stun. Stun is an immortal warrior among the players, and I'd also suggest that he probably got his weapon dam runes before changes to gem pop rates. They say behind every good man is a... woman, er druid, and his partnership with a certain very smart druid goes a long way to making Stun even greater. For some of us, these things are impossible to obtain. Also Teker - you mention double damage... double what? My broadside formally did the same damage as a kick, but failed more. Double isn't very impressive when you double not much at all. I understand at the moment you can't really say it did 40 damage and now it does 80 damage, because "secret squirrel" still dark cloaks the mud but yeah...

That's me for this round.
Gimme a G! Gimme a ORKA!
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Re: Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

Postby Teron » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:14 am

Gorka wrote:Lay off teker guys! It's not his fault that our lack of weapon dam eq still renders broadside pretty undesirable for us mid-bie warriors.

I don't think Teker or anyone said he'd add more ingame and drachma weapon damage eq, so we analyze what we see and provide the feedback that's required to make things better. We are attacking the issue, not Teker, so I think that is within the lines of constructive criticism. So don't swing your axe at us prematurely, Gorka.

Also, you or I don't know where imms want the new broadside/flail to stand in terms of damage, or how it scales with weapon damage.

And so far broadside is still lacking. Teker said there'd be a few tweaks, I hope it'll get better.
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Re: Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

Postby Gorka » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:26 am

I think weapon damage eq is the cause of the problem though. That is the domain of the builders who add eq, not the coder's like Teker as I understand it.

What ever gets done, it's going to get considerably better for Stun than for us... simply because weapon damage is currently part of the broadside formula. I don't see how it's possible to win in this situation without fixing the linear progression of warrior weapon dam eq over levels. It will either suck for us, or overpower Stun... (Not saying it's effect on Stun is overpowering either, just that it's better in comparison)

There are only two solutions as I see it, you would have to make the progression of the skill non linear, or make it ignore weapon dam altogether. I think making the progression of the skill non linear, ie, the progression of the skill increase faster for low levels, isn't a good solution, as at some point weapon damage eq will be added to the game... at that point it will become over powered for the newbies. I call these types of things "bandaid solutions" because they don't address deep issues.

So to summarise... weapon dam eq is weird, how can you "win" when using weapon damage as a formula in broadside and still keep everyone happy? I don't think it's possible without creating a problem that bites at another point later. The only reason I defended Teker on that particular point, is because as a programmer myself I see he is between a rock and hard place, trying to use weapon dam in a formula, that's just not linear or even for all players. It would be easier to avoid using weapon damage in the formula all together, or lessen any multiplication it might do, simply due to the fact the variable is essentially flawed and causing inbalances.
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Re: Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

Postby Teron » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:24 am

Though Teker should know better, here's what I'd do:
- make broadside do ok damage with mostly regular/dice damage with linear bonuses from 40s (that's how it is, I imagine?)
- introduce weapon dam eq
- update broadside to favor weapon damage.

Then again, if flail is supposed to be main damage dealing skill, then the last point should apply to flail also/instead.
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Re: Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

Postby *teker* » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:31 pm

Teron wrote:As a tank, it means I don't want to use broadside to do miniscule damage, because it lags, or to stun mobs, because there's a chance it'll put me on my back, unable to rescue or heal self.

As an assisting warrior or in solo, I can wind or flail. With capped flail, flail does more damage. The only drawback is, when you land the flail after the mob dies.

Could you describe us, where in the damage skill list you (or you and imms) want to place broadside and flail, so you'd set our expectations right?


We haven't really discussed it on an imm level other than that I was going to try some changes and see what happens. I don't like "useless" skills. It seems like bodyslam would also fall into that category. I think a single target skill like broadside should do more than an area affect skill like flail. I would like to see additional weapon skills that can be used with other weapon types so that players could enable those skills if they choose a different weapon. We have that somewhat in that only certain weapons can broadside or riposte but I'd like to see alternatives that can be used with other weapons. Additional bare hand skills could be added as well to give monks more variety.
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Re: Changelog 2016-08-05 - skills / spells

Postby cyprimus » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:07 am

Well. My two cents, i feel monks have good variety... its just others got the same.. ieeveryone eventually will have grip/strike etc..

Would encourage my monk more to do something along the lines of like thieves... reduced cost on touch and or grip..
and or reduced hit penalty.. touch misses a lot..

Again, would suggest just extending the barehanded bonus' to addetional 40's after 40 monk, especially for primes.

Also, altering where/when damage reduction is applied, in terms of before/same/after lite fluidity etc..... but thats something major.. and, not knowing the numbers, i cannot say what would be reasonable.

Bodyslam is fairly useless.. maybe make it more like a flying kick, that can be done in a fight... risk falling to knock your opponent down and do extra damage.. maybe use some moves in the process.

Could also see adding stances--ie-defensive stance gives bonus to ac, pen to attacks.. etc..... but seen them unbalance more muds than i wanna count..

Anyways, thanks for your work!
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