Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby *juggleblood* » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:36 pm

Just blathering ideas here...upgrade swords from valor, such as:
sword of redemption 4d5+2+3, warrior prime 40 + avatar 5
sword of carnage 4d5+4+1, warrior prime 40 + avatar 20

...or maybe nonprime? I guess warrior prime should have a supreme sword aye? Maybe make dwarvish axe the supreme warrior weapon? (and yes i agree it must gut and riposte)

Just thoughts. I agree it's a niche that could be flushed out better.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby *juggleblood* » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:41 pm

Gorka wrote:I already know about how you and some other imms feel about the 3 x 40 axe which doesn't deathblow and broadside. Sure it's not a sword... but from my point of view I would just like to know if it is going to get changed or not, as I would seriously consider picking it if it was. I'd just like to know where I stand.

A coder could look at broadside? Given it's not going to get used much by avatars, maybe it should be dropped to valk levels, which would encourage warriors to broadside instead of strike. This would encourage less crossover of warriors playing monk style because of necessity, and make it more a choice.


I vote in favor of fixing axe. I haven't asked the committee tho, will do that. Regarding broadside, I concur. Also noobie mages should have a mirror. And broadside should knock people down about half as much. Just my opinion tho.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby *juggleblood* » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:07 pm

*Axe of Dwarvish Lords will now broadside, riposte, deathblow just like sword.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Teron » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:24 am

Thanks, JB!

Some math on valor vs axe:
- valor with clasp is 5d5 1 2
- axe is 6d5 5 0 +dex

- avg for valor is 2+(5+25)/2=17
- avg for axe is (6+30)/2=18

I don't see how it's worth it for warriors to pick 1 dam, unless they want to get the +dex. But then, there are +2dex +hpr laces, which are more useful for a tank. Warriors already have ok hitroll, so the value of +5hitroll is diminished.

So, right now, it seems like the tri40 axe is for non-wa primes, who can't take the valor sword. Or for tri40 warriors, who are expected to exchange the axe for something else at 6x40.

So:
- I agree that valor could be upgraded with 40s (6x40, 7x40, 8x40, 9x40) and avatar levels, e.g. add +hit for every 40 and +1dam for every 10 avatar levels (JB, you've actually lowered damage for 20av in your post)
- the tri40 axe could be made the ultimate weapon, but then it'd have to radically outpower the wa prime sword, if we want warriors to use the axe

Would it make sense to have the tri40axe more powerful, than the wa prime weapon?

I say, perhaps, because we already have +ma prime light outpowered by a 4x40 quest item, and prime eq can serve as a powerup, not as the ultimate upgrade.

If the axe does become as powerful, maybe bards or necros start using it.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Gorka » Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:50 am

Thanks for the change JB!

I'm excited! I will make this my first 3x40 choice, however I do expect to exchange the axe at 6x40 or there abouts because at around this point, I sense I will begin to take on Taron's sentiments. There is an AC sacrifice in taking the axe, but I don't expect I will be tanking before 6x40. I feel the change to axe also helps address the lowbie warrior weapon dam issue, so I will ride that wave and exchange afterwards, but I'm stoked about the change. Thank you.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Hung » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:25 pm

Thanks JB for fixing the axe!
However that string is quite explanative why I wont switch to the new axe on my bard:
You quickly duck aside and use an evil death knight's strength against him in a brutal
counterattack!


I've made some statistics gathering scripts to see how often counterattack does actually works. And here are preliminary results:
Total fighting rounds: 114
Total incoming attacks: 267
Total counterattacks: 37
Counterattacks per round: 37/114 = ~32%
Counterattacks per incoming attacks: 37/267 = ~14%
So basically counterattack works average every third round or every sixth incoming attack. And that is without oghams which is supposed to empower it even more.
So the counterattack itself is enough reason for my bard to choose bare-handed fighting (btw, by bare-handed I didnt mean full monk set, but only not using a weapon).

Previously it had been said that the weapon fighting is supposed to be more defensive, while fists are more offensive. So far is works only for the prime warriors. For non-primes fists are more defensive.
Therefore I propose to fix it once and for all by introducing new non prime warrior skill deflection, that'll add small chance of blocking incoming blow with a weapon. I propose it to work following way:
  • It works only when holding a weapon.
  • It is passive(i.e. it doesn't require to be explicity turned on unlike counterattack).
  • It doesn't return any damage back to the attacker.
  • It works on ether when wielding hammer or dark mace.
  • It is turned off when parry is turned on(sorry, dear warriors, you're powerful enough already).
  • The success rate is close to the counterattack, maybe a bit higher.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby *teker* » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:51 pm

So based on this post I'm seeing the following suggestions:
- Make parry non-prime and less effective for non-primes (or make new skill)
- Dual-wielding
- Increase the weapon damage cap to be closer to the hand damage cap
- Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)
- Better fight-starter for warriors

A couple other things that no one has mentioned:
1) It seems logical to me that players should fight better as warrior or monk depending on their class order.
2) The weapon slot could be made more valuable. A dark mace isn't just an ether weapon, it also procs, provides mana regen, and heal bonus at high levels. We could add more weapons or weapon clasps with procs and/or bonuses. There could be more runes allowed on the weapon slot. Would it change a bard's behavior if there was a weapon or weapon clasp that increased charisma, number of song targets, or song duration? How about if there was a weapon that worked like a peri and healed after dealing a particular amount of damage?
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Gorka » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:27 pm

Are you an immortal or a player teker, I'm confused... why are you thinking like us? :lol:

Keep up the good work... by the way, discovered the other day that my kick dam was about the same as my broadside damage... so yeah... probably not what anyone intended.

Careful about asking for ideas around here, we might drown you in our dreams. Do what you think is right. :)
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Hung » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:42 pm

Well, frankly I think charisma is quite useless even for my bard. As I use songs that depends on it(cry of avatars and reign of confusion) rarely. And even when I do my ~20 charisma is more than enough. Groups arent big these days so I easily affect all followers with my gods of war. So, no, I wont switch to a bard weapon.

Btw, maybe necromancer prime analogue to dark mace that procs vampiric touch may be a good idea to inspire more people play necros.

Anyway introducing more weapons wont solve problem of noone taking Axe of Dwarvish Lords. Unless it'll be the one added proposed healing-like-peri proc. New weapon clasps/runes might also help. However it really depends on what it'll offer.

For my bard I find fists ideal solution for all situation. It is good for groups, as I do decent damage with them. And it is good for solo, as counterattack provides me additional protection even when I fight in ac with followers. I want to take the axe, however it wouldn't be good idea.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby *teker* » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:57 pm

So I brought up this list to the other imms and the feedback I got was:

The following list isn't happening:
- Make parry non-prime and less effective for non-primes (or make new skill)
- Dual-wielding

The following list probably isn't happening:
- Better fight-starter for warriors

The following list could happen:
- Increase the weapon damage cap to be closer to the hand damage cap
- Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)

1st Question: Based on this - is there really any fix that would make a bard or other non-warrior/non-monk prime class use a weapon when soloing? Or is the benefit from counterattack just too great to change from bare handed?


I've looked at the code for kick, broadside, and strike. The biggest difference right now is that strike benefits from a bunch of potential bonuses that the other two do not. I'm thinking that kick will probably be left alone since it's a low level skill but that broadside should be improved to include many of the same types of bonuses that strike benefits from.

2nd Question: How does flail perform? I've taken a high level look at it and it seems to start with the weapon damage and includes some bonuses but not as many as strike.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Hung » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:37 pm

Thanks for you efforts, Teker.
I hope other bards will also share their opinions in this thread.

I would like to demonstrate exact situation with my bard.
This is my solo eqset that is mix of ac, charisma and hand dam gear:
You are using:
<used as light> embers of the funeral pyre (with a flawed glowing gem attached to it)
<worn on finger> ring of a thousand singing souls ()socketed Freshwater Pearl Rune()
<worn on finger> ring of a thousand singing souls ()socketed Freshwater Pearl Rune() (with a
ring ribbon attached to it)
<worn around neck> a patched black cloak
<worn on shoulders> Ivy Etched Shoulder Guards..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn on body> a suit of glowing, diamond-encrusted platemail (with the mark of the jovial
attached to it)
<worn on head> The Crown of Thorns (with a reddish-colored glass eye attached to it)
<worn on legs> titanium greaves (with a golden, four-pointed star (Major) attached to it)
<worn on feet> a pair of black tassled boots..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn on hands> Gauntlets of Thunder..It has a soft glowing aura!
<worn on arms> banded leather sleeves..It glows violet!
<worn as shield> an olive turtle dragon shell
<worn about body> Cloak of Forgotten Tales ()socketed Citrine Rune()
<worn about waist> an ebony sash
<worn around wrist> a bony bracelet (with a little dancing star attached to it)
<worn around wrist> a bony bracelet (with a little dancing star attached to it)
<held> book of the old forgotten tales ()socketed Banded Agate Rune()
<instrument> a snare drum

It has only 3 monk items(Gauntlets of Thunder, banded leather sleeves and ebony sash), each giving +2 hd.
Such eq set gives me following score:
Kid %s (level: 40)
Your levels: Ba: 40 Dr: 40 Cl: 40 Ne: 40 Mo: 40 Wa: 32 Ma: 21 Th: 20 Av: 8
You are 27 years, 11 months, 1 day old.
You are a citizen of Settlestone.
You are a devout worshipper of Ming.
You spread goodness and joy everywhere you go.
You have visited most of this area.
You've seen 57.1% of the world.
You have (940/940+96) hit, (613/613+64) mana and (396/396+44) movement points.
Your armor class is -8.5.
You have +9 to hit, +11 on damage and up to 2 attacks.
You have 0 gold coins.
You have three hundred and sixty-seven drachma.
You have 85361 honor.
You have 565269538 unused experience points.
You have been playing for 35 days, 4 hours, 51 minutes.
You are a member of Legends.
You are well-attuned to the healing stratum.
Str: 18[14], Int: 17[17], Wis: 18[18], Dex: 18[18], Con: 16[16] (87[83])
You are resting.
Your song can affect as many as twelve people.

The following bonuses affect you:
Damage Red. : 53% ( 7) [|||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
Charisma : 79% ( 19) [||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ]
Hand Damage : 28% ( 6) [|||||||||||||| ]

That is without glamour(which increates charisma) and bless/grace/peri's blessing(which increates hitroll).

Let's calculate how many passive damage per round I could make.
One hit will do 7.5(I heard somewhere non-prime monks base damage is 3d4) + 11(damage in score) + 10(gods of war) = 28.5
I can do 3 hits per round(double attack + flurry).
So overall round damage is 85.5

Now let's say I switch to axe.
Then one blow will make 17.5(average of 5d6) + 5(damage left without hand dam) + 10(gods of war) = 32.5
I could do 2 blows per round(no flurry).
So overall round damage is 65.
I.e. even passive damage is significantly higher with fists for my character.
Of course, replacing monk items with ac ones will give me like -.8ac. However the counterattack compensates that ac loss with vengeance. Btw, I've tested it with oghams on and the rate per round raised up to ~38%.

So I dont see me switching to the axe in the nearly future even if broadside will be improved.
On the other hand even now single blow of axe does more than single hit. Therefore I may switch to it in the very distance future. After gaining triple attack, haste and avatar attack. After reaching 9x40 and buying all 10 weapon dam points from the avatar shop. After forging of demonskin gaunts and getting all weapon dam runes(all of them are tier 3). Then maybe axe will become better choice.

p.s. While there, I ask the administration to review the following drachma item:
Serpentskin Bracer
-0.4 WeaponDam 2, Hpr 2
Drachma [770]
I dont know a single player who purchased it even among the dedicated swordsmen. It definitely doesnt worth it's drachma.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Ker » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:55 pm

Good day Lord Teker,

To simply put -

The monk's ability to strike harder factors in hand damage. The more hand damage a player obtains, the more painful the strike skill is. On the plus side, 'hand damage' also improves their ability to deal more damage in a combat round. All this without the fuss of looking for a weapon.

This is the "universal answer" every player would go for since going without a weapon also allows you to play with monk goodies such as the counter attack/dodge etc.

So to answer your first question - there is no fix to go the no brainer route like above. It is efficient, simple and effective. Pretty much how the class works naturally. To compliment the difference, I would agree to follow the same concept as above. Warriors having the option to include their weapon_bonus to their skills such as : broadside, flail etc. Still though, I cannot see how this would influence a player's choice in change.

On a different note, there are very little weapon bonus goodies. A player this route would need to rely heavily on gems, which are pretty much non-existent, to only hit a capacity of barely 18% (output in raw ratio) of what a monk concept can offer head to toe. Since gem rates will not change, maybe we can start looking at weapon_bonus scale or perhaps the long much anticipated wait - bonus_weapon_bonus.

Old traditional warrior gear with top AC comes either with a penalty or nothing at all. Maybe we could look into complimenting these too.

Kind regards,

Dr
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Hung » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:00 pm

Another solution had been offered on our telegram chat. The idea is to introduce mobs that are vulnerable to weapons(like there are already mobs that are vulnerable to light, fire, etc...). If there will be plenty of such mobs and if killing it will be worthwhile, then players of all classes will have to carry weapons with them.
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Gorka » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:55 am

*teker* wrote:The following list isn't happening:
- Make parry non-prime and less effective for non-primes (or make new skill)
- Dual-wielding


Good! And if the mages all want second wind, then I want frostbolt :lol:

*teker* wrote:The following list probably isn't happening:
- Better fight-starter for warriors


How about changing charge to a foot charge... just like in the movies, think Braveheart or Gladiator.. but without having to be on horseback. A bit of a buff for the first round. Charge is already an existing skill and useful for newbies, it is also an opener, unfortunately the game doesn't really use mounts past valk, mostly because mounts are completely unpractical for groups and keep wandering off. Also mounts are impractical with many other game skills. Maybe a small change to charge, disregarding the horseback element, and the problem is solved.

*teker* wrote:The following list could happen:
- Increase the weapon damage cap to be closer to the hand damage cap
- Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)


Teker, increasing the cap a little probably needs to happen... but this doesn't address the problem. I am 1x40 and my monk side is about 20% more powerful than my warrior side. Next 40, my monk side gets another 5 hand dam and my warrior side gets nothing. All that hand dam adds to grip, strike, flurry and counterattack. The divide is only getting worse. The real issue with warrior is the beginning, the monks are completely dope. Changing to caps only helps avatars. There is not a lot wrong with avatar warriors... checkout stun...

*teker* wrote:- Increase damage for broadside and/or flail (or fix in other ways)


Yes please! Could you make this maybe automatic as part of warrior combat? Like I don't like the idea of broadside being "strike" for warriors. I like the riposte/crit hits concept. I don't like the idea of warrior skills mimicking monk, but they do need to be useful.

Hung wrote:Serpentskin Bracer
-0.4 WeaponDam 2, Hpr 2
Drachma [770]


JB has alluded to creating a new warrior bracer, given the stat he suggested for it and how it compares with this... this item will probably have to change anyway. I'd suggest at least -0.5 and more MVR or HPR or HP's with a price adjustment as you see fit. Please keep in mind, warriors are going to want 2, so the price needs to reflect that, like the monk bracer.

Just to reiterate my main concern about any changes... I don't like the idea of warriors becoming too much like monks, if anything I want to celebrate in the prime differences. I don't really want weapon dam to become like handdam - that's the monk struggle, and yes we need to see more low level weapon dam eq in game, but I think the easiest way to address the problem is actually changes to the swordsmanship skill.

If you are looking to be creative, I like the idea of bashing with my shield, or headbutting with my helmet automatically (like riposte), or I like the idea of having different styles of swordsmanship... more aggressive which may effect my defenses, or more defensive which may decrease my offenses.

Looking forward to seeing whats coming, and think the decisions seem on track so far. If you want to see the difference between me fighting as warrior with sword of valor vs hand dam style catch me in game. It's quite a large gap and it's going to get worse next level!
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Re: Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

Postby Teron » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:54 am

Teker, thanks for looking into the fighters.

To answer your questions:
1.Personally, when I play a solo bard, I use dodge, not counter, so my weapon needs +2 charisma (to compensate for the dagger of dreams), have high damage dice and maybe a proc or +1-2mana regen.

If I were making a choice to get a hd set for grouping, only a weapon with significant damage or +2-3persons affected -5-10% song cost would keep me from doing it.

Like Yang said, in groups few songs need charisma and if they do, it happens rarely.

If you want bards to go full charisma, keep their +charisma weapons on, and buy +bonus-charisma eq, make charisma boost the number of ppl affected by the bard and song effect, such as:
- 10 charisma: gods of war is 9 damage, 0 ppl bonus
- 12 charisma: gods of war is 10 damage, 0 ppl bonus
- 14 charisma: gods of war is 11 damage, 1 ppl bonus
- 16 charisma: gods of war is 12 damage, 1 ppl bonus
- 18 charisma: gods of war is 13 damage, 2 ppl bonus
- 20 charisma: gods of war is 14 damage, 2 ppl bonus (current cap at 1x40)
- etc
See more here.

# of ppl affected matters, because in large groups sometimes a bard isn't enough and he can't do anything, other than leveling to 9x40 to use his instruments, to affect more ppl. Maybe more +ppl bonus/-mana cost% eq would help here.

As for necros, same deal about solo: +high damage dice,+mr and damage procs.

Some druids pick the staff of the elders - +2mr fireball proc - as tri40 eq. Try to emulate this one.

Actually back in the days, weapons with procs were prized posessions, such as Raven's Fire or even the crimson rapier. These days, it's more of a toy, because a strike is better than any random proc, and mostly, these weapons have lower weapon dice, so doesn't really boost damage noticeably, compared to prime or tri40 weapons.

The only few damage proc weapons that are worthy are the Kladenetz blade (4d4 +2 +2 and a massive proc) and the a bone hilted tempered sword: high damage of 3d5 +2 +2 and a burning debuff with a duration. Other weapons include the black kris of power and the golden dagger of the black thieves, because the damn/blind on stab. Maybe necro weapons that debuff with weaken and crimson scourge can work: the spear of pestilence is a nice weapon name with +uc, maybe you could add these procs to it.

tldr; make awesome procs for weapons with high damage dice for ppl to use them or they'll go with tri40 weapons or barehanded.

2. When capped at 60, flail does about 50-120 damage and is less, than a strike with hand dam (also note that I get an extra attack, if I go bare-handed, as Kung has demonstrated above).

More often, than not, flail does about 60-80 damage and is just a minimal addition to tank damage. I'm simply using it, because there sometimes is nothing else to do, because I'm either singing or out of mana or saving mana for heals.

When I change to my wd mode (paradoxically, I have 40 flail in it, because I use the +wd rune on the saurian sleeves), flail does less, as far as I can tell, so rarely bother with it.

Broadside does even less damage, doesn't have +stat eq and doesn't work on 5m+ mobs. It's as useless as it gets, except I use broadside on small mobs, when I don't want to do area damage on death in the elemental school.

The way I see it about strike/flail/weap damage:
- there is little weap dam items for warriors to grow in damage, compared to hand damage
- broadside/flail don't scale with levels, like strike does (7av master strike)
- therefore, broadside/flail are rarely used for damage
- anything but capped weapon damage doesn't compensate for flurry, it's just a great monk skill.

So, it looks like broadside and flail need major boosts in damage to be used for damage dealing warriors for real, maybe multiply weap dam for it, so warriors would consider switching to wd instead of going barehanded.

Also, I disagree that an addition to damage only has to be passive: we already have riposte and massive crit hit Warriors do need an active skill or two they can choose to use in fights, otherwise weapon damage modes will be boring. Shieldbash for tanks?

Though, practically, what if flail at its current state becomes a toggleable skill that gets added at the end of the round and doesn't create any lag? Then broadside could be the go-to skill for active offense.

Thanks again for your assistance.
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