Bare-handed vs weapon fighting balance

[Hung]

Salutations,
Right now, the fighting balance is shifted to bare-handed side. It offers great skills such as deathgrip, strike, flurry and counterattack. Therefore even prime warriors often prefer to keep their Swords of Valor sheathed and use martial arts. Not speaking of other classes who lack parry, riposte and massive critical hit.
I am not saying weapons aren't used at all. It is used as instruments when the situation requires so. Such as prime clerics use dark maces against undead, demons and ether. Everyone has to use spiritual hammers against ether. Prime warrior unsheath their swords when it comes to tanking. Etc.
But still fists are superior.
Not sure, maybe it works as intended, but for me it's weird to see prime warriors using their fists as well as stashes of Axes of Dwarvish Lords collecting dust at the Lord Moonglum's shop.
Maybe it's time to buff fighting with weapon?
Here are some things that could be done:
1) Make parry everyone skill instead of prime(with lower % than prime warriors, of course, and keep riposte prime warrior only). It'll make weapons used in solo much more frequently.
2) Add dual-wielding. If one can put weapon in other hand instead of shield and it'll add him 2-3 attacks, he'll definitely consider using it instead of fists.

p.s. Even if someone will disagree with initial thesis that fists are superior to weapon, it doesnt mean dual-wielding shouldn't be added. As it would be great feature.

[Gorka]

Hung's premise is that "Bare handed fighting is better than swords."

I honestly don't know if this is the case all the way through the journey of being a warrior, but it is certainly a fact for Gorka. I currently do more damage playing monk style. (Tested in Coliseum)

Although I agree that in a logical sense swords generally should be doing more damage than bare handed attacks... Clearly it's not the first thing in Sloth not to make sense, and if that is the justification to change something, then certainly we are about to open Pandora's box...

Warrior skills such as crit hits, 3 attacks, second wind (prime) etc all complement a monk's damage, but nothing from the monk class complements a warrior's damage when fighting with a sword. This makes the monk class dominant... and positions monk bias.

In my opinion, sword damage just can't compete with hand damage especially at low levels. There are 39 hand dam items in game, and 13 weapon dam items (most hard forges, drachma or high restricted).

A level 39 non prime monk can fairly easily scrap together 9 hand dam. Of the 13 weapon dam items in game, only 2 (same slot btw) are available to warriors at levels less than level 40. Both only offer 1 weapon dam in a slot where there is an easy regular dam item's available.

Hung's premise is not an opinion, I think it's a fact, from my experience so far. Does it need changing, well it's not my position to say, but if I wanted too, I'd add weapon dam items, and beef the swordsmanship skill for lower levels.

I would love to use a sword, but I simply won't until it works out better for me.

I believe the hand dam cap is 33 (but unobtainable) and the warrior weapon dam cap is 25 (but obtainable). Most of the weapon damage cap has to be purchased at 9x40 - which means for lower levels most warriors are naturally positioned to play in a non-prime style. Yes, this is a pity...

[Josiah]

Rofl!

If one can put weapon in other hand instead of shield and it'll add him 2-3 attacks...

On average, accounting properly for crit and massive crit, a top tier swordsman deals 100 damage per hit. Over the course of a minute, your proposed adjustment is like 13-20 free firewinds.

While you're adjusting things, make sure to give mages an extra 400 mana regen and 'second wind' so they can keep up!

A less game-breaking 'fix', (if one is needed), would be improving broadside or flail. Monkstyle is already less passive damage than a swordsman. It only edges ahead because strike is so superior to broadside/flail.

[Josiah]

In my opinion, sword damage just can't compete with hand damage especially at low levels. There are 39 hand dam items in game, and 13 weapon dam items (most hard forges, drachma or high restricted).

As early as newbatia, you can wield an enchanted sharpened 2-handed ogre claymore that deals 4d5 +4 damage. Besides it's huge damage output, it also gets bonus attacks against mobs that flee!

You won't start dealing similar damage unarmed combat until you have 40 monk and 2000ish drachma. A max level monk needs +9 handdam before he equalizes with the claymore. He'll probably have far worse AC, and the swordsman could always wear additional +dam eq.

Maybe you're wielding the wrong weapon? Josiah didn't start fighting unarmed until around 4x40. He did plan to go that route from the beginning, so no drachma was wasted...

[Gorka]

In my opinion, sword damage just can't compete with hand damage especially at low levels. There are 39 hand dam items in game, and 13 weapon dam items (most hard forges, drachma or high restricted).

As early as newbatia, you can wield an enchanted sharpened 2-handed ogre claymore that deals 4d5 +4 damage. Besides it's huge damage output, it also gets bonus attacks against mobs that flee!

You won't start dealing similar damage unarmed combat until you have 40 monk and 2000ish drachma. A max level monk needs +9 handdam before he equalizes with the claymore. He'll probably have far worse AC, and the swordsman could always wear additional +dam eq.

Maybe you're wielding the wrong weapon? Josiah didn't start fighting unarmed until around 4x40. He did plan to go that route from the beginning, so no drachma was wasted...

I need to look into what your saying more and test some things... but surely it's strange that a valker can use a weapon that's almost as elite as 9x40 weapon from an early onset? Where is the progression? Also there are no 3x40 swords or drachma swords, I have no idea why. A mage wearing pyjamas wearing an axe of the dwarvish lords has a better weapon than a warrior... But this is not an issue, since no one chooses this item anyway! It all seems a little odd. An average 40 Monk should be able to get 15+ hand dam together fairly easy... I don't think the complaint is about "poor warriors" I mean we have guys running around at a temp -15... I think it's more the giggle that hands are better than swords... and that somehow a monk wearing cloth can beat a tin can in melee.

Totally agree on broadside/flail, for me on regular coliseum mobs broadside does 3% damage while my free strike will do 10%... and I also don't have to stand up all the time. Those warrior weapon damage bracers also need an adjustment the restricts and prices are laughable compared to the similar monk bracers... not to mention it's possible to cap weapon dam without them AND get better ac.

Catch me in game if you see me, and give me some tips.

[Hung]

Josiah,
Ok, weapons provide bigger(not significally though) passive damage than fists. That is definitely plus for weapons. However let's see pluses of martial arts:

• Defense skill(counterattack) which doesn't have weapons' counterpart for non-prime warriors.
• Fight starter(deathgrip) which is much better than charge.
• Active damage(strike) which is significally better than broadside or flail.

So overally fists are better than swords even if they lose in passive damage.
For me the counterattack itself is enough to use fists on my bard and necro. If there was comparable non-warrior prime defense skill I'd switch to weapon.

p.s. There are countless ways to balance dual-wielding so it'll not become overpower.

[Josiah]

surely it's strange that a valker can use a weapon that's almost as elite as 9x40 weapon from an early onset? Where is the progression?

Well, the sword I quoted is a twink weapon... it isn't available to real newbies. It pops on a group mob in a rarely visited area. To reach its peak potential it must be enchanted by a level 25 mage, and sharpened by a level 25 avatar, at a cost of 3 million gold.

A true newbie gets the intended progression by using whatever weapons they find, rather than going straight for the best.

You'll find many games allow extra power for experienced players, either by player knowledge or via New Game+ mechanics.

[Wallop]

Well, the sword I quoted is a twink weapon... it isn't available to real newbies. It pops on a group mob in a rarely visited area. To reach its peak potential it must be enchanted by a level 25 mage, and sharpened by a level 25 avatar, at a cost of 3 million gold.

I've got one of those that I carry around on Vk. It's enchanted but not sharpened. It's incredibly fun to massacre all the time as a level 20 while wearing all armor gear. But from an overall xp/run perspective I find it nearly identical to using a mithril axe with shield.

[*juggleblood*]

@Gorka, I don't think we'll see comprehensive attempts to balance warriors' weapdam against monks' handdam, because warrior class in sloth is geared towards defense where monk is geared toward offense. The two classes complement each other nicely. I'm glad that the monk class has developed to the point that it has and I dig the symbiosis of the two.

That being said, I will keep your thoughts in mind the next I build a zone and am designing eq and make sure to throw a bone to weapdam.

[Gorka]

Thanks JB, at lower levels, that was probably all it needed! I understand your premise about warriors being defensive and monks being offensive as well.

With the current weapon dam cap quite attainable at high levels, any adding of weapon dam items to new slots will make the drachma weapon dam items (particularly the bracers) seem even more ridiculous than they already are. If your purpose is just to make the item useful for lowbies, I'd recommend making it an item for which there is currently already a better weapon dam item available at later levels, this way the item is only useful for lowbies. Maybe it should also be prime restricted - otherwise we have every other class needing the item as well and the balance of the game gets shifted as effectively, everyone would be made more powerful.

I already know about how you and some other imms feel about the 3 x 40 axe which doesn't deathblow and broadside. Sure it's not a sword... but from my point of view I would just like to know if it is going to get changed or not, as I would seriously consider picking it if it was. I'd just like to know where I stand.

A coder could look at broadside? Given it's not going to get used much by avatars, maybe it should be dropped to valk levels, which would encourage warriors to broadside instead of strike. This would encourage less crossover of warriors playing monk style because of necessity, and make it more a choice.

[Teron]

I disagree with Yang and agree with Josiah, mostly.

Weapon damage is ok passive damage, but you can't rely on it to solo mobs. It's good to have in tank/solo mode, but that's that, you can't kill mobs with wd unless you want to chop ogres/chasm forever. Warriors can use pets/blast to do damage and be in a weapon dam set. That's what I have been doing, because i went the ac/wd route and it was ok, very different from the hd route. So not all warriors pick hd.

Also, there is a parry-like skill for non-prime warriors, and it's dodge. It works regardless of using a weapon, even though it works 1/3.5 of the time and only for 2-4 rounds and even then, you have to waste an attack on it. It's still useful for doing a hard-hitting [Lyme] mob that drops in 2 rounds, though.

Yes, fixing broadside and/or adding flail damage could improve the gameplay for warriors.

What could also improve it is to add more +weap dam items, because:
- in ac I have 9 weapon damage from high-end eq and a clasp
- in my weap dam set I add +1 weap dam from eq, +2 wd from a rune, and +5 raw damage from regular items.

If I had the -0.6 gaunts, I'd swap +5wd devilskin gaunts, but still, the dam difference between ac and dam is very little, compared to switching to a hd set.

Personally, I'd love to see warriors doing more weapon damage in groups at the cost of their ac by:
- removing the debuff on berserk, which removes crit hits
- adding unique +wd items with ac handicap would help
- adding 1-2 more attacks with dual wield in exchange of a shield
- fixing broadside and/or adding more dam to flail

Obviously, with this passive damage, dd warriors need to be using an active skill, too, otherwise they'll be either blasting or doing nothing (broadside sucks, flail doesn't compare to strike for damage even if maxed).

[Hung]

Taron, thanks for your opinion.
I agree that prime warriors have more than enough reasons to use swords. Of course, the situation could be made even better by introducing dual-wielding, adding more wd items, impoving flail and broadside, etc.
However what about non-prime warriors? Especially bards and necros. I think it is wrong that they have no choice but to fight with bare-hands. And Axes of Dwarvish Lords keep collecting dust...

[Teron]

Why do you think that everyone has to fight with bare hands?
Wind does more damage, then the strike damage you might do (or you might miss). x1.5 winds per round is nothing to sneeze at.

Barehanded damage is for when you either splork a thin mob (but even then, wind does more damage, than a strike w/o capped hd), or when you aren't taking any damage. Anything in between, thicker, and still doing average damage, and you need to kill the mob faster, than to chop it with your bare hands.

In groups, however, barehanded fighting goes a long way, if you are also healing. All you need is a regular hd set, no drachma spent. In this regard, hd set definitely wins over a wd set. But then, you'd have to replace most of your heal eq with hd eq.

[Hung]

Taron,
I think that counterattack is so amazing skill(esp. for bard or necro) that even if I plan to fight in full ac using stab and blast, even then I'll fight bare-handed. Only because of the counterattack skill(maybe empowering it with ogham psalms).

Basically I complain about two separate things:
1) Weapon fighting does too low damage.
2) Non-prime warriors lack any weapon fighting defense skill.

And Axes of Dwarvish Lords keep collecting dust...

[Teron]

Warriors don't use tri40 axe, because the warrior prime sword, used with the 6x40 clasp, is just a few damage points lower, then the Axe. And you can get -0.1ac and 40hps from two of the tri40 items. Guess what warriors choose.

Add a multiplier to the Axe and I'll consider taking it (and yes, it has to deathblow and broadside, too, just like the double-bladed axe from the maws can deathblow and slash).