Solo vs Group Balance: why must we group?

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Solo vs Group Balance: why must we group?

Postby Teron » Wed May 11, 2016 10:42 am

Greetings.

As much as I like grouping from time to time to kill big bad mobs and loot great shiny booty, soloing still takes a good portion of our game time. What's more, I think that soloing can and should be an integral part of our gameplay and it shouldn't be discouraged, because we have different needs, short- and long-term. Yet, the focus on grouping discourages people to keep playing, if they can't find a group.

Why? Let's take a look:
- after you hit 1-2x40, you need to find groups to pop most eq for 2-4x40
- there are group exp bonuses, while soloing is actually a disadvantage on its own
- t2-t3 gems load only in groups
- kill history is a disvantage to soloers, than groups, because soloers have less areas to hit for their class.

Examples:
1.Eq
- a -0.3 ring is easy to get, but the next -0.4 ring is on a 7mil that takes a group or a 5x40 to kill
-chinchilla boots are 2x40 that 2x40s can't solo. A group or a 7x40 is required.
- a -0.7 warrior prime neck is on a 7-9mil mob in Crypt. A -0.7 non-prme cloak is on a 21mil group mob. An alternative, a cloak of shimmering colors, is on a 20mil mob.

Other ways to get a -0.6 neck:
- -0.6 -mr, on a 40mil mob (used to be 6-9mil) - admittedly, the only -0.6 neck for 20wa
- dragonscale cloaks, on 10m+ mobs
- Sir Galden - a mob that a 1x40 warrior can't solo
- a necklace of hooves: a 15mil+ mob in DWeb
- the only soloable alternative is the enslaved ogre smith.

It's not impossible, but good luck for a warrior to try all the mobs before ending up at the ogre blacksmith

Mana belts:
- most belts are 5-7 mana and aren't soloable, even with the weakest stats (with the exception of the fiery sash)
- a 10ma belt, sub30ma restricted,is on a 4mil mob that a 2x40 mage can't solo, unless he has -10ac
- the next big thing, the sparkling emerald belt, is on a group mob and there's a +15ma belt in hellwell, too.

In short, as a new player, you need to know the mobs like the back of your hand to pop them - if you are lucky. Or you need to rely on others and group.

2. When soloing, you deal one-man damage and have higher chances of corpsing. When grouping, you can kill harder mobs easier. An obvious difference. And yet, the exp bonuses are for groups.

3. Same goes for gems. You can only pop t1s solo, even if you hit 20-30mil mobs for eq.

4. While there are many areas for players to solo into, groups can still cover many more areas, thanks to their versatility and survivability. They pick areas mostly by exp/hr, not whether they'll survive big ones (unless the group is reasonably small).

So, you are moved to group. Even if there are few groups or if you really don't want to group, leaving you gold grinding as the only option to get eq that people pop.

So, what I propose:
- add or move plain intermediate 1-2x40 eq to mobs, soloable by 1-2x40 of respective classes
- reduce kill history % for solo
- allow t2s and t3s load solo, following the same chance there is in groups (i.e., lesser chance, than in groups, thanks to the number of group members: 1, and less chance, given that ppl solo smaller mobs).

I don't know how to solve the exp difference w/o removing exp bonuses for groups, so let's leave it at that for now.

I'm bringing this up for discussion, because I can only see how I feel when soloing, and that lots of new players leave, possibly due to lack of progress or groups (playerbase). Yet, maybe isn't how you feel and that everyone comes here for company.

So, if you want to discuss, answer the following questions:
- is it reasonably comfortable for new 1-2x40 players to progress with eq?
- do you feel a disadvantage, when soloing at 21-2x40?
- do you prefer to solo or to group, why?
- would any of the suggested solutions help you solo?

Thanks.
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Re: Solo vs Group Balance: why must we group?

Postby Ezekiel » Thu May 12, 2016 1:40 pm

Heya all,

Ezekiel here...wanted to chime in on Taron's questions...which were the following:

"So, if you want to discuss, answer the following questions:
- is it reasonably comfortable for new 1-2x40 players to progress with eq?
- do you feel a disadvantage, when soloing at 21-2x40?
- do you prefer to solo or to group, why?
- would any of the suggested solutions help you solo?"

1. No, it is not reasonably comfortable for new 1-2x40 chars to progress with eq. It's not supposed to be. If you want to solo, fine...you'll be running with lackluster eq til about 3-4x40...dragging a bit behind. The reason groups are encouraged at that level is (1). you actually can start contributing to groups around 1-2x40 and (2). we need these chars to learn the structures and even HOW to group so at 5x40 they still aren't grouping and not knowing the basics. For instance, necros typically don't need to group much after that 2x40 mark and most don't...but at least when they want to, they know how because they've had to previously.

2. Do you feel at a disadvantage because of this? Sure, when things become harder rather than easier for anything it seems like a disadvantage... or a challenge (depending on how you look at it). In my perspective, this challenge is necessary to actually get chars acclimated to grouping at a level where they will not be ridiculed for not knowing something. If this structure didn't exist, I see a lot more of you leading and saying to groupees "How do you not know this at 5x40?" Granted, with the lack of groups as of late...it's hard to get involved in groups. That's a separate issue...but I don't think the answer is to just make all challenges easier... because some challenges encourage necessary learning within the playerbase.

3. I prefer grouping to solo. I come here for the community and think some others do too. I know some people are just fine with soloing and that's great. I do hope though that at least everyone knows how to group by the end of 2x40, which I'm trying to address here in an unbiased fashion, even though I do enjoy grouping more.

4. The suggestions may have helped me solo at 1-2x40, sure. Granted, we had more groups then, so this would have been a null discussion, because acquiring that eq group wise didn't seem like as much of a feat. I like your suggestions, as this is a topic that needs to be discussed if groups continue to be suppressed (as we could even lose more playerbase to the issue)...I just don't know if making things easier per lev 1-2x40 is the correct way to handle it.

I do appreciate when players take the time to bring the issues they see to light. Even though we have different perspectives on the issue, I do acknowledge that with limited groups, these chars may struggle more and get disheartened. I don't know the solution, but I do know that almost everyone prefers to have a mud where chars know how to group alongside them adequately and prevent frustrations by leaders and groupees. Tough problem for sure. Maybe others have some ideas...

Sincerely,
Ezekiel
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Re: Solo vs Group Balance: why must we group?

Postby Teron » Fri May 13, 2016 4:18 am

1. The thing is, though, 1x40 players not only have intermediate eq, they have valk-level eq. The next step, for the most part, lies in grouping. While in groups, they can get good eq for their level (if not best in slot - bis - for 2x40).

Are you sure that it's ok that the only obvious way to get eq is to group? Why not give players a chance to get it *intermediate* eq their own, while honing their skills solo?

When they are ready, they can join groups to get better eq. It might be that the huge gap between a freshly off-valk 1x40 player and grouping is precisely the difference between valk eq & group eq and Valk solo & fast-paced grouping.

And to close the gap, we probably need intermediate eq and learn skills on their own. Coliseum helps this a lot, but it doesn't get you eq.

2. You see, soloing is a challenge and I'm not suggesting to make it a lot easier. What I'm suggesting is to leave players a way to play on their own, if they feel like it or can't find groups.

Just to show how we are on the same page here:
If I were to run a clan, I'd require new members get 22 kills in the coliseum at their level. This will demand them to:
- learn and use the simplest triggers, including intricate target capture (trigger patterns and variables)
- learn what all of their skills/spells do and use most of them to kill mobs
- be quick or be dead
- learn and use astrology
- learn mobs' weaknesses.

However, if gold and eq come in question, it's not as easy to come by solo, if at all possible and it should not be impossible or improbable.

Players should be able to get their fair share for their solo investment, while learning how to play the mud. Grouping isn't the only venue they can use.

If they want to get better eq for their levels, they can group and learn the ropes there.

3. I like grouping too. I come here to socialize as well. However, in my opinion, what makes gaming interesting is the variety of things you can do here:
- quest
- forge stuff
- explore
- join big groups
- grind gold
- grind exp
- cycle eq
- 2man
- play a bard.

You'll notice that for 1-2x40 cycling eq is mostly out of the question, as well as grinding gold and exploration. And this reduces the variety and fun.

4.
Ezekiel wrote:Granted, we had more groups then, so this would have been a null discussion

That's precisely the point I am making: we shouldn't 100% rely on groups to get us started.

You don't 100% rely them at 7x40 to get exp/eq, why should that be different at 1-2x40? With the only difference being eq quality, of course.

5. Like I said, soloing for eq/exp & coliseum is what can increase players' skills for grouping, because right now, they are told to "get a group".

Of course, the other solution is to get more groups running and invite players early on, so they can at least watch, but we've covered this in another topic.
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Re: Solo vs Group Balance: why must we group?

Postby zenoko » Fri May 13, 2016 4:55 pm

"So, if you want to discuss, answer the following questions:
- is it reasonably comfortable for new 1-2x40 players to progress with eq?
- do you feel a disadvantage, when soloing at 21-2x40?
- do you prefer to solo or to group, why?
- would any of the suggested solutions help you solo?"

I will not put numbers to answer this but as a person who never really reached avatar but made multiple 3x40s I can give some insight into what pre avatar is like

usually when I make a new char I try to find someone to group with as a permanent group member whenever they are on at around level 15-20ish however I find a lot of people either get outplayed in terms of levels or really have to much time on their hands and outplay me to a point where grouping is no longer fun (getting like 20% of the exp) since the lower levels go by fast this happens quite rapidly.

I find new people do progress with their eq quite well (too well to be exact) as most WILL NOT LEAVE valk until they do everything including forging the jjd... I noticed that many people quit due to this being very hard to forge with almost NO ONE being around to help make it.

back onto grouping I actually feel like I'm at an advantage soloing unless my group can kill BIGGER mobs more EFFECIENTLY otherwise there would be no point in having someone who has half his spells/skills learned or plain afks during the whole group. Mostly because of the exp is DRASTICALY lower (it almost always is 50% or less) unless you are hauling a newb around.
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