Bots

[*juggleblood*]

If it's the group leader 'accidentally' letting them die, there's not much I can do. But I strongly discourage anyone using botting as an excuse to pkill someone. Remember the 'harmony of the mud' rule.

The thing about botters is that they get more flagrant over time. They do get caught and the consequences are significant. Just recall them and report it on page or mudmail or email or tell. Don't expect a personal reply and don't expect immediate action. If you want immediate action recall them yourself or ask the group leader to do it.

And by the way, if you are a troublemaker/troll as noted in your pfile, and you pkill someone for any reason, you will be punished as a pkiller regardless of the situation (even if it's your group). You know who you are.

[Thraxas]

And by the way, if you are a troublemaker/troll as noted in your pfile, and you pkill someone for any reason, you will be punished as a pkiller regardless of the situation (even if it's your group). You know who you are.

How can you find out if you've been flagged in this way?

T

[Teron]

Although even if they are are completely away, how are they different from someone who just types follow leader and sits there doing nothing because what he does is not important, and why should one be punished because he has a script that does something important for the group and the other should not be punished because he doesnt have any scripts but is just sponging ?

The general sense of rules is do not exp while afk. That's how they are different. For all I know, being afk with a spell bot at WG is illegal for this very reason - you help people make exp, while being AFK (even though you are not actually making any exp, unless you are a cl prime and raise people).

Personally, I meant botting as being afk, while the group is running. Nothing more, nothing less. I guess I do use a colloquial meaning of the word "to be afk, when the group needs you", rather than it's direct meaning, "to run scripts".

If there's a script running that does all the work without disrupting how the group runs and the player responds to tells/gt, then fine, be present at the keyboard and do your work (whether if it's a script or not, I don't care. Sometimes, a script works better, than an ignorant mage, who blasts wrong targets).

I too appreciate well written scripts. Sometimes, however, direct interaction helps a lot, when something bad happens, this is what people need to pay attention for. For example:
- tanks need to rescue shy people with pets, who don't sing (though it could be scripted as well, I presume)
- mages need to blast incoming aggro or summoned mobs
- front line needs to blast stab/blast mobs, when the back row is low on mana (I've had a full front line of warriors not cast a thing on elites recently: we kicked it to death - a shuddering experience.)
- a newbie is dying and needs a restore/shield/light (and not a soul has scripts that are as good as Thraxas's).

Heck, there are more situations, than I can remember.

This situation is just ridiculous - Making scripts to find out bots, pushing them to aggro mobs ? You wouldnt push a player to an aggro mob if he joined your group to sponge and went afk, you just recall him or ungroup him, if you realise that he's not doing anything that is - which unless a player is important you never actually notice. But if he has a script that helps a group at the right time by doing his job you are justified to pkill him ?

I never said I'd be writing scripts to detect bots. I was thinking in the line of jumping through [s]hoops[/s] portals.

I'd be very much inclined to go to a dangerous spot and recall, so the repeat, 100% verified afk person learns to pay attention, because, like Splork said, we'd rather handle it ourselves and he won't be able to prove/verify that the person was afk.

Though it is easier to leave afkers alone, which is what I was and will definitely be doing. This solution or similar is also very friendly to false positives.

As for people, who do nothing, but are present, I try to find work for everyone (blind/weaken as the minimum). There are a few newbies that I didn't get to do anything, because their levels and/or classo didn't allow them to sanc or gate. I have nothing against these people, as long as they help the group: they have to get xp somewhere. And two attacks with a spec are worth something (especially, if the newbie spec wielder takes 1/2 exp of any tri40 ).


Personally, I've decided to do only one change in my groups: I'll ask people, who go afk for more, than 1 tick, while the group is running, to announce that via gt or tell (or gossip/shout/yell). Afk announcement on regens is welcome, but not obligatory, unless you are not or may not be going back before the group runs.

If I find someone afk while running w/o an announcement for more, than 2-3 ticks, a few times, I'll consider ungrouping or recalling him/her (probably, just before deathblow).

Another way to suffer for afkness during grouping is losing pops or calls for eq. It helps to be present, when the leader asks, who needs an uncalled pop (or a gem[!]).

I am really tired of afkness between regens lately. I do try to run smoothly, but I've realized that if I want to run enjoyable groups (not just for myself, but for others, too), I need to make sure people are present at the keyboards, when the group is running. This is one of the reasons that small groups work so well: everyone's paying full attention. If I were to write a compendium of what to do or not to do in groups, it'd simply come down to paying attention and doing everything your char can to help the group kill the mob and keep people alive at all times.

[element]

p1 -- 'p2 stop autoassisting and help debuff/blind'

p2 no response for 10minutes, continues autoassisting

p1 recites a scroll of recall on p2.

p2 -- 'wtf'

p2 -- 'i wasn't botting, I was semi-afk'

p2 -- 'i'm sure I was assisting, I use auto-assist scripts'

p1 -- 'i asked you over 10 times the past 10minutes to help blind/debuff and not autoassist'

p2 -- 'why don't you mind your own business'

[blackmore]

What Element failed to post from p2:

p2 -- 'I had p1 gagged since yesterday.'

No, p1 wasn't the leader. It was pretty damn funny though. Someone was auto-assisting instead of helping to debuff, and didn't even know they'd been called out on it because they had gagged the person calling them out.

[element]

if he had me "gagged" how was he responding to my grouptells?

and iirc, his words were that he had me on notell, which is funny since I was saying it over grouptell.

this was the 2nd time he's done in the the past 2 groups I was in. the previous time, leader spotted and recalled him for being non-responsive for 5 minutes. he claims to have "auto-assist" scripts. yet i spotted him just standing there not engaging mobs for a whole 2 minutes.

It's funny how as soon as he is recalled, he's responsive. probably has some #bell trigger for being recalled

Why do I want these little characters to help debuff?
It's ridiculous to have the only 2 level 40 mages in the group (paka and myself) blinding and weakening when we could be dealing big damage to the mobs. Just like you wouldn't want your clerics in the healo to be cast lagged because they have to help debuffing. besides, a thief/warrior with 200mana should put his mana to good use.

I am not on a witchhunt here. People do suddenly get distracted while playing the mud, either due to kids or phonecall. But if you KNOW that you can't pay attention because you're at work, then please don't be in a group. It misleads the leader into thinking that the group has more useable mana than it actually has, and more often than not group has to wait around for you to enter portals or whatever.

There's something I've been mauling over with a few people on the mud, I don't know how it could be implemented.

I think XP given for kill could be lowered, and more bonus given to actual damage dealt to the mobs. Of course I'm not talking about increasing the xp u get from damaging the mob exponentially, just in a way such that in the end, it evens out. Of course then healers would need more xp for healing. A small frostbolting lvl 37 mage shouldn't be getting less xp just because he/she has less total levels than a 4x40 monk or thief who is just standing there hitting the mob.

[element]

and just to clarify, I was not out to get botters/afkers.

we were running a smallish eq group, and there were only 2 blasters in group, paka and myself. We were not fighting efficiently coz both of us were the only ones debuffing. So I asked that group members help out too. One other smallish player started helping. others were healing so I didn't bother them. then I noticed one other player just standing there. So I asked him to help debuff, and to assist after that. one mob later, same deal. 2 mobs later, no reply. 3 mobs later, still just standing there. leader asks "are you here?" no response. countdown, 5 4 3 2 1. he is recalled. Suddenly, P2 -- 'wtf?'

do the math

[Tuck]

wtf element was blasting

peace

[element]

hehehe silly tuckette

[mahkra]

Actually this is pretty much a which hunt. It seems you have a target and you are doing everything you can to drive him out. Both in public channels and private.

Something I think that is being missed here is this guy is pretty much a true nub and sometimes isn't the only true nuwbie in the group when the game cops show up and start crapping on the harmony of the group. This last incident pissed me off because i was having a good time even though I had corpsed. The group was running pretty much harmoniously and the leader was doing all the anti bot stuff what seems to have become the norm (which has had the side affect of leaving me behind on regens because I chose to do things like read forums and fix things in my client). Then the game cops show up. start yelling at this person and an argument ensues. Now I am not having a good time. The focus is now on gamecop and his target. Never mind that apparently target had game cop notelled and didn't respond until someone other than gamecop was bitching at him.

Does they guy bot in groups. Yeah probably, I have recalled him myself. Does that mean he should be driven out of the game? Seems like it. Never mind all he can bring to a group is blind and a stab that no one will let him use because he is a new has no gear and no experience. Apparently OPEN in group titles just means "open if you know what you are doing and we like you."
For a game slim on players it would seem to me a lynch mob of game cops is as big a problem as a guy autoassisting. The other target of the lynch mob seems to be straightening up lately.

[element]

interesting post.

how is "Rasufe please don't autoassist and help blind" considered yelling?

if he's a true n00b he should be learning, and not afking while the group is fighting. in the previous group teron, myself, and paka, advised him not to use autoassists and to help debuff. his reply was he'll do what he wants to. and if he doesn't want to debuff and choose to autoassist, that's his right.

[Dragoth]

All fair points tbh, just dont get overzealous and drive away players.

[Stab]

Agreed, don't be too critical of newb play. Sometimes one good tell or honest assistance is worth all the thread stuffs you can muster. Hope he reads the threads. BM. I watched that one too but P1 and P2 will never stop that stuff. It did feel like a wet blanket had been throw over things for a moment. As I've seen elsewhere.. some just do not play well with others.
I think Rasufe is a true newb and group spam can be overwhelming until one get the right gags in place or extra windows up. Coloring my tells red and capturing a few popups helped alot. Botting and good scripting has been well covered in this one. It's somewhat reassuring to others frustration at the few things that bug me too sometime.

[element]

apparently, he's still doing it so I wouldn't bet the house mortgage on him learning if I were you.

I don't get it sometimes....

players bitch and whine about certain aspects of the game. The admin has now come out to say that the reason it was put in, and the reason it will not be removed anytime soon, is because players bot/afk in groups. They've also clarified that we have to police it ourselves, because we're not going to like what happens if they have to do it.

yet players say "hey, don't mess with bots as long as it doesn't ruin my xp gain!"

[Teron]

Sounds like I've missed all the fun sometime, somewhere!

Speaking of witch hunt.

Mahkra, compare exping 2-4man with a few solid guys/gals to constant waiting or underhealing or excessive management required in large groups. It's heaven and earth, in my opinion, considering the former exp can sometimes be better.