Monk Prime Arm, thought experiment

[*juggleblood*]

I'm enjoying the banter about various imbalances in the game, so here's an experiment in designing equipment by groupthink. Let's take one slot for one prime class that is not flushed out, and flush out the rough parameters of what that equipment should look like.

I have chosen monk prime arm for the following reasons:
1. There is little improvement in the slot from newbie levels. 9x40 prime monks are wearing level 30 prime gear.
2. The slot is one of high importance to that class. For example, in this case one would expect that monks should have cool arm gear since they're punching all the time and you can reasonably expect that arm gear would affect hand damage, a monk's most prized stat.
3. This class can't fully achieve cap for the stat in question, i.e. currently monk's can't achieve max hand dam.
4. There is better, comparable eq for another similar class available at a higher level, in this case the thief 2x40 sleeves.
5. The best prime gear for this slot+class is little better than non-prime eq that becomes available at a higher level, sleeves of enlightenment.

So my question to you guys is, how would you outline the linear progression for hand dam on arm for me at various levels? as regards to AC, HD, Hit, Dam?, max_str?...

And what are the other obvious prime+slot equipment for other classes that could be outlined in linear fashion? Would you outline a progression of weap dam arm for war prime for example? I think this type of approach could help organize the effort.

Oh, and regarding drachma equipment. Remember that it is not a problem to introduce eq that is better than drachma shop equipment. We have dealt with this issue before and come to the conclusion that we will not be constrained in the creation of new equipment by drach gear. Perhaps if some piece is made obsolete by a forge, then that drachma piece itself could be a cp, or we could some kind of buyback. In any case it would be a solvable issue.

[Gorka]

Nice post JB.

First point, MAX_STR already has a linear progression, you can wear more with 40's, and wearing more before that essentially does very little. This already controls the "worth" of how much you can wear and makes it linear, so that's great! Might I add, as I am trying to do a MAX_STR warrior build, there is a workable path currently, it's not all doom and gloom for eq, sometimes there is a path and sometimes it makes sense.

Second point: Linear progression is easy to design. You need to think about your "ends." The best and worst eq for your monk arms... and then pace out the progression between your best and worst ends.

Case in Point: Monk Arms...

MAX_STR: A prime monk can only wear 6 points, there are about 17 slots. Hence best MAX_STR on any item should be 1.

AC: Best ac for arms is -0.9. Damage arms comes at an ac penalty... therefore AC for arms with dam is prob -0.6-0.7 at best.

HIT: There are few items with more than +2 hit. Hence max + hit should be about 2. Note: 17 slots.

DAM: There are few items with +2 dam. We are making a monk build. +dam items could unbalance thieves therefore better not to use dam. Hand dam contains the problem to only monks. Prime eq, and prime stats and there smart use are essential for maintaining balance. Unfortunately some classes are suffering in the dam department simply because the dam stat helps thieves more than anyone else. That was a mistake...

HANDDAM: Most hand dam items are +2. There are about 17 slots. Count in stuff at the shop and runes, and yeah rule of thumb is I wouldn't exceed +2 hand dam, and this gets us close to cap anyway.

In most cases the worst eq is near zero, or just +1 in one particular stat. So put all this together... and I think you have something like -0.6/-0.7 +2 Hand Dam + 1 MAX_STR +hit for a 9x40 arms... reduce the benefit by about half for 4x40... and you get something like -0.5 +2 Hand Dam +2 hit. Etc etc. Hope you see where I am going with these ideas.

[*juggleblood*]

That's pretty good. I was thinking tho that the handdam on a 9x40 monk prime arm item could higher without unbalancing thief because of multiple stabs.

[Josiah]

I like the idea of theorycrafting some equipment, but I'm not sold that monk prime sleeves is a good starting point for the following reasons:

Prime-only equipment sucks [citation needed]
The new forge sleeves are superior to prime sleeves, so monks don't have to wear newbie gear anymore.

Regarding #5: Are we assuming now that prime gear should be the ultimate equipment? Historically speaking, prime gear has very low restrictions and is usually obsolete by the time you reach high levels.

(Yes, I hear you saying the sword of valor is never obsolete; I refute that with: 'remove sword')

[*juggleblood*]

Regarding #5: Are we assuming now that prime gear should be the ultimate equipment? Historically speaking, prime gear has very low restrictions and is usually obsolete by the time you reach high levels.

Ah, yeah I was assuming that, mistakenly I guess.

[*teker*]

I think the best way to achieve balance and scaling would be to assign point values to the variety of bonuses that equipment provides. Equipment that makes stats or abilities worse would count those as negative point values. Then compare the various pieces of equipment based on their total points. Some sort of point range would then be defined for each category of levels (1-7, 8-14, 15-20, 20-39, 1x40, 2x, etc). Value and rent cost would be based on the points and could be modified up or down at a particular point cost/refund. Some RPGs use this sort of system (Hero Games in particular) to try to balance PCs, their equipment, and spells/skills.

[Teron]

Teker, that's a reasonable way of doing it.

However, you'd have to analyze, which abilities do/heal more damage, than others, to assign the points to the bonuses. As an added benefit, it'd help clear up avatar shop stat costs.

[Gorka]

It would be difficult to arrive at a fair value for DAM.

DAM by it's self for a melee attack, is completely over valued by the game. DAM in a multiplier such as stab, is extremely valuable. STAB DAM should have been made the multiplier for stab. I don't think it's fair that everyone is paying the price a thief should pay for DAM. So what would you do when effectively DAM has a high and a low value? What is the real value of DAM... it becomes class relative. It's a difficult question. In most cases any stat that increases mana or regen would work out more valuable than dam, if the dam is not multiplied.

Teker also suggested that the stats of an object could decide the object value and rent. A completely rational and logical thought. But sloth has never worked that way, some objects have insane values for what they are... case in point... a beaded bracelet. I for one capitalize on incorrect object values for eq and yet coins is still a grind. I could imagine the shock to some players if eq values got "fixed." Like to some degree we have been taking advantage of this issue right from the start. Sloth has always been so "bumpy" with things that don't make sense, to some degree we have all taken advantage of them... do we really want them "fixed?"

In general I am in favor of change... but also part of me wonders if there is too much change, will it still be sloth? Like these days fargate is up most days, and regening in groups is rare (if groups run at all). There are always some sort of bonuses up, and there is an xp bonus for the number of 40's, it's still kind of sloth, but in some ways it also isn't. I have some old logs from a few years back that make very amusing reading in the context of how things work today. In my first days on sloth "Nab" was the "Wow! Monk." I have a log of his eq, which included a patched black cloak and his eq doesn't even scratch on what there is today.

Those who played s2, like why did you even bother... the fails must have been excessive... and yet this was probably the time of sloths best success... If I sound conflicted about some of these issues, it's because I am.

[Teron]

1. In s5, everyone can stab, so everyone has to pay the price for dam. Though I agree that dam is more valuable to thieves/monks, than others, thanks to multipliers.

2. I don't think rent values should depend on stats, because 7x40s+ will have at least 3 eq sets with high stats, making it very, very expensive to rent.

For example, even with our current rent prices, my daily rent is about 230k, and I bring it down to 170k by wearing high rent stuff - most of which is ac, for some reason.

And don't get me started on the gold grind, I have a draft saved about it and I have yet to finish it (as well as about monk arm suggestions).

3. S2-3 success has nothing to do with changes. Back then, we played on ELT monitors and MUDs offered better graphics and gameplay, than most games. With the coming of high-quality graphical MMORPGs, MUDs became less popular, it's not about changes, at all.

I don't fear changes: the game needs to evolve. However, right now the biggest issue is the number of players, not the game changes, unless they are popular in the MUD world and lacking in Sloth (such as seeing damage numbers for your hits).

[*juggleblood*]

Regarding #5: Are we assuming now that prime gear should be the ultimate equipment? Historically speaking, prime gear has very low restrictions and is usually obsolete by the time you reach high levels.

Ah, yeah I was assuming that, mistakenly I guess.

What do others think about this? Is what Josiah saying an accepted norm, or rather is it that development of prime equipment development has been neglected? Should there be high level prime equipment? Should monks expect that they will have more available hand damage via eq than warrior prime? Another way to ask this is to ask if people think that classes should become more specialized through equipment or would players prefer than the high level equipment is not prime so that they can use every play style effectively, regardless of prime class?

[Gorka]

Mark me down as a firm supporter of having more powerful equipment limited to the players prime class.

I hate this globalized world where everyone is obsessed with being the same as everyone else. Diversity is something that should be celebrated... for everything in this world there is an opposite. For every male there is a female, for every black there is a white, for every objective thinker there is a subjective thinker. People are like food they all have a certain flavor. You can't just expect to put every food in a bowl together and expect it to taste nice. It doesn't work in the real world... and I don't think it will work in sloth. Celebrate our differences and the things that make us unique. Having everybody the same does not encourage people to work together, it discourages it.

It's through our specialties all working together that all is made stronger.

</out>

[alris]

I'd say diversity should lie in our characters, not in what we wear. Just to look from different point of view - Sloth is a game with mulitclass system, so nothing wrong when you try playing a game of not strictly your prime class. When you, for example, figure out you have thief in classo and make damage set, you would rather consider and discard drachma dagger, than stickicking to bolt/kris option. So I vote for real cool eq not being prime, but being the way it currently is - high restrictions, low drop chance, hard mobs or drachma value(either shop or autoquest). Also, agreeing with Josiah point, current prime equipment is somewhat good, but for a mid game(aside the sword for non-josiah-warriors).
K, k, thx, bye!

[Teron]

JB, why not have both?

Some prime gear can be more powerful, than ingame gear, like those herb clasps - they are unique for their slots. It doesn't mean that there shouldn't be low-level prime items to make players feel the progress.
Prime classes can and should become more specialized in what they can do.

I can't imagine prime classes not getting special prime gear, otherwise, why bother with prime gear at all?

However, we shouldn't leave out options for other classes either, they just have to be less specialized, than prime. For example, Taron/Alris as 8th thieves can't use 50 stab dam from eq, because our 9x40 cap is 31(?) and we can buy 10 from the avatar shop. So we don't need stab dam on most gear in our stab sets. Doesn't mean we don't need it at all, however.

Also, we already have prime spell dam robes and belts and unique 30lev thief sleeves that are just a bit worse, than csleeves, so they are already more powerful, than most ingame items.

So, I suggest we have it all:
- prime gear for lower levels to make players feel good about themselves and get a few powerful items they'll replace later
- prime gear that's as good as tri40/drachma items or better, because primes need to reach their caps and stack a few others, because we do need more, than one
- non-prime BIS (best in slot) gear to complement prime/tri40/drachma gear

It doesn't mean there there need to be 18 prime BIS items, maybe 2-4 at most?

Some non-prime gear can be specialized for the roles, like -ac +maxcon +dam reduction tank gear for groups or it could combine several stats for solo, like the pirate hat -ac +maxcon -saves, -ac +dam +spell dam sleeves, etc

[*juggleblood*]

You can't have it both ways cuz either there exists prime eq that is best in class for the slot or it doesn't exist. You are basically on the same side of the argument as Gorka, that it would be cool to specialize the classes by making available upper end prime eq. So we have 2 responses for and 2 responses against.

Now that I have a better perspective on this, I'm thinking that if I introduced monk prime arms it would be for 2x40, to mirror the thief prime arms and then if we make monk arms above sleeves of enlightenment (5x40) I'd say those should probably be non-prime, in keeping with tradition, unless there were wide support for moving in a new direction.

[Gorka]

* Not so sure Taron is on my side, most independent players will be anti-prime eq, esp warriors wanting hand dam.
* In the light of recent discussions... What the hell do monks currently need more hand dam for?
* What about this already existing fairly good item monk prime item? (sleeves of black ice)

You've lost me!